The 'Couldn't think where to put this' thread part 2 or 'does my comment merit a NEW THREAD?'

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Comments

  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    I was taught 20th century history inc. Hitler, Stalin, Mao at some point in the four years before we picked subjects for O Levels but my parents had lived through the war and told me all about the Holocaust. Plus I was (still am) interested in history from an early age.

    Madcap could you please put some paragraph breaks in your posts. Thank you
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef ;ok

    My mum was mad keen on history so I also took a keen interest. And as someone else said previously, The World at War should be required viewing. Can`t see that series ever being surpassed.

    Suze. Kings and Queens. Battles and dates. Personally I find this sort of stuff more interesting:

    https://workingclasshistory.com/

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    There is a common denominator that links them all, power and authority.

    Couldn't disagree more. The common denominator is people. The root of atrocities and cruelty is in people, not in their institutions.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mrs G, I believe that people are inherently good. I take the opposite view, "the root of atrocities and cruelty is in people" then surely we are damned forever.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    No, because the root is there but it doesn't have to grow (to extend my metaphor ;biggrin )
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    MrsGrey, does that mean then that we are born to be cruel and commit atrocities?
    Is it not the acquisition of power/money/authority that changes us?
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    MrsGrey, your post was obviously on its way before mine ;biggrin
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Surely, without those institutions in place, without the infrastructure, without the peoples blind faith in power and authority, Hitler would have been just a sad little man in the corner with a dodgy haircut and dodgier moustache. Without the institutions these people would be nobodies. Putin without the state would be just some middle aged, homo erotic, bare chested, horse riding, fly fishing oddity.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Madcap

    People, individuals, commit atrocities. There is no way around that. Hitler didn't personally commit many atrocities, I shouldn't think, but he offered an ideology where people could.

    You seem to be arguing that without institutions, this would not be the case. I would argue that all that institutional organisation does is to enlarge the scale.

    People like Hitler speak to, and give free reign to, the instincts in people that healthily organised societies curb.

    You can argue whether the instinct to cruelty and violence is inherent in human nature, or simply a sickness in some people, but you can't argue that it is people, individuals, not organisations, that do the actual violence.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Pol Pot didn't need the institutions of the Cambodian state to carry out atrocities, he just had more people with guns than anyone else.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef, I.E. he had more power than others. But what causes these people to commit atrocities? Surely it`s the pursuit of power. Without power, without authority, without our conditioning (i.e. to accept without question what our leaders tell us) surely Mr Jones the baker doesn`t become a bayonet wielding baby killer. If, from an early age, we are taught to not respect authority but to question it, if we are taught that the pursuit of power is socially unacceptable, if we are taught that no one has has the automatic right to tell you what to do, surely as a society, we may have a little bit of a mind shift. Teaching about the Holocaust does nothing if it doesn`t change our attitudes and mindset. History constantly repeating itself means that we are doing the same things wrong.

    Grey, but Hitler offered up his ideology in a World where power and authority are blindly respected. What if people listened for a bit, shrugged and turned away. Things wouldn`t have turned out quite so bad. It`s the fact that nothing has changed, the fact that we are conditioned to accept and respect power and authority that allows the Pol Pots, the Hitlers and the Mussolinis to thrive. Whilst we accept that power and authority can be wielded by a tiny minority of people nothing will change, ever. If we approach it from the premise that no one has the absolute right to decide our fates but ourselves, then would be dictators become nobodies.

    People carry out atrocities at the behest of leaders because they are conditioned to do so. Nothing else can explain why thousands of ordinary people suddenly become blood thirsty killers than the irrational respect held for power and authority.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited January 2019
    Nothing else can explain why thousands of ordinary people suddenly become blood thirsty killers than the irrational respect held for power and authority.
    Nothing for you, but that doesn't mean it is true.

    I think it is as simple as recognising that many people have the potential, and the desire, to commit such terrible actions.

    Political circumstances simply give them formal permission, with no consequences.

    I don't believe those who worked in the Nazi prison camps thought:

    'Well, this is what the Fuhrer wants, so best get on with it, even though I find it morally and physically repugnant.'

    I don't believe people who commit war crimes are 'conditioned'; I think they want to, even if only in that precise moment.

    Those who do it more than once clearly have a taste for it, imo.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    TheMadcapLaughs said:



    Grey, but Hitler offered up his ideology in a World where power and authority are blindly respected. What if people listened for a bit, shrugged and turned away.

    Disagree with your spin on the situation.


    Hitler didn't always have power and authority.

    People listened to him when he was a nobody (relatively speaking) and there were other much more powerful figures/people in positions of authority. Some 'shrugged and turned away' but many more didn't. And in fact they clearly were not 'blindly respecting' those in power - in fact they REJECTED them.

    They liked what Hitler had to say, and GAVE him the power and authority he asked for... because they shared his ideas and wanted his vision to be realised.



  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mrs G. I`m arguing against the concept of power and authority. Yes, the people that installed Hitler into power rejected what was the current administration and replaced it with Hitler. Same concept, different faces. Given humanities apparent proclivity to butcher and maim why give anyone all the guns. Seems reckless to me.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    Unfortunately, the history of the human race has proven that there is a lot of truth in the quote, “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”

    That is not to say that many leaders have gone on to do great things for the advancement of civilization but the cases where corruption and abuse take hold are unfortunately many.

    One topic that give me pause is how little coverage is given to the abuse of the Japanese in WW2, many examples of abuse of allied POWs exist but it is not often that the scale of the atrocities perpetrated in China are exposed.

    The list of detailed known cases of mistreatment of POWs is truly horrific but additionally, It is believed that somewhere between 4 and 10 million Chinese are thought to have perished at the hands of the Japanese between 1937 and 1945.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr & Mrs G, I`m not arguing with the fact that there are a lot of nutters out there, I also agree that there will always be random horrific acts, and yes, buried deep within some of us are the tendencies (roots) to commit unspeakable horrors. But mass killings, genocides, are always state sponsored. Mr G, your phrase "Political circumstances simply give them formal permission, with no consequences" sums it up way better than I could ever put it. And the only point I (rather poorly) was trying to make is that teaching kids about the holocaust is vitally important to our understanding of the human psyche. But teaching the facts and figures of the holocaust is not learning from the holocaust. We always say "never again". Until the next time.
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    image
  • whupathmanwhupathman
    When people feel they gave the ability to behave in a terrible way as it has official approval and no consequence then people can be terrible, look at the summary executions happening on the war on drugs in the Philippines, humanity has a weakness that if you allow atrocity in the name of the state, it happens
  • SlackerSlacker
    "The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people."MLK.
    I've always tried to live by that beautiful statement,it's not always been possible and I've endured a few silent rides in the back of black cabs because of it.However it always felt better to challenge than to keep silent.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    Going slightly off at a tangent, my favorite quote by MLK that I hang my hat on is where he states, “I live for the day when my children will be judged, not by the color of their skin, but by their character”

    For me, that says it all because at the end of the day, does it not all come down to that.

    ;ok
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    Going way off topic but I know that many of you realize that it can get quite chilly over here, but this week the temps here in Chicago are crazy cold.

    On wednesday we are expecting to experience the coldest core temperatures in Chicagos history, a high of minus 18F and a low of minus 28F, wind chills are expected to range between minus 40F and minus 60F.

    And that my friends, is proper cold.

    Apparently it will be warmer on the summit of Mount Everest - how crazy is that!!
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    ;nonono
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    We are obviously talking about dangerous temperatures here, there are many warnings about exposing any flesh at all, frostbite can occur within ten minutes of being outside and advice abounds about avoiding deep breaths and even talking.

    I am just praying that the power stays on and that people can hunker down - we certainly will be.
  • HammerwombatHammerwombat
    Good luck Chicago ;cappuccino keep as warm as you can.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Poor animals outside ;puzzled
  • BazshuayiBazshuayi
    Yes, even Millwall can get affected by the cold ;wink
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    MrsGrey said:

    Poor animals outside ;puzzled

    Can you imagine being homeless when it`s like this. Cold enough here at the minute at minus 2, minus 3 the last few days. We have about 1mm of snow (where it has settled). Be safe Chicago. ;cappuccino ;cake
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    My favorite line this week

    “It is so cold in Chicago, the politicians have their hands in their own pockets”

    Well it made me laugh ;lol
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Chicago, on the news this morning there was a report from Chicago. Almost incomprehensible the conditions there. Getting colder here too, hovered between minus 6 and 7 this morning. Saw a chap in Chicago chuck a mug of boiling water in the air and it turned instantly to "snow". ;scary
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    ;nonono
This discussion has been closed.