The 'Couldn't think where to put this' thread part 2 or 'does my comment merit a NEW THREAD?'

ASLEFshrugged

I recommend "Before the deluge" by Otto Friedrich.

It might have been a "Golden Age" for some but for a lot of people it was a pretty miserable time which is why Hitler was able to exploit the discontent.

Politically it was chaos with numerous changes of government, the shortest being Herman Muller's 86 days as Chancellor in 1920 although he lasted longer the second time, from June 1928 until March 1930.

MrsGrey

Sounds familiar.

chicagohammer

I recall visiting Sachenhasuen outside Berlin, it is what and where you expect such a place to be, in the woods, off the beaten track and out of sight, then I visited Dachau and was astonished to see that it was in the center of the village, there is no way the residents had no idea what was going on, I submit that many felt powerless, but they knew.

Mrs Grey is correct in that the evils perpetrated by the Nazi regime extended beyond the persecution of the Jews, they considered numerous races and those of a different disposition as sub human and treated them ruthlessly and without mercy, but the extermination of the Jews was a central focus of Nazi ideology and I think that it is what elevates and focuses the fate of the Jews when discussioning the Holocaust.

MrsGrey

Chicago, you make an interesting observation re collusion. It's something I wasn't too aware of, but in the report that ASLEF linked to, they highlight the issue of widespread collusion by ordinary folk and other regimes, as well as the issue that the UK and others knew what was going on before the camps were 'discovered'. They raise the fact that these aspects are often not addressed in the teaching/ wider discussion.

MunichHammer

Chicago- Dachau was the first concentration camp and started off as a Prison for political dissenters. Yes, there was a crematorium and small gas Chambers but it wasn't what most people think of when they hear concentration camp. THAT would be something like Auschwitz or Treblinka.

MrsGrey

Most of the murders were in Poland, not Germany - is that right, Munich?

MunichHammer

As far as I am aware, yes. The Nazis wanted their "Lebensraum im Osten" (Living space in the east) so they built up their main camps as far east as they could.

ASLEFshrugged

Btw if anyone claims the British invented concentration camps during the Boer War we got the idea from the Americans who used them in the Philippines who got the idea from the Spanish who used them in Cuba who got the idea from the American reservation system.

Kuchinghammer

I'm going to write a long comment later, since I taught 20c History back in 70s and 80s Essex... but for now...
A sample of 2,000? Taken when and where? To represent the entire UK population of 60+million?
Something very fishy about this
;hmm

MrsGrey

kuching

It was commissioned by the HMDT, and carried out by a polling company 'Opinion matters' https://www.hmd.org.uk/news/we-release-research-to-mark-holocaust-memorial-day-2019/

The sample make up was weighted to reflect the make up of the UK adult population.

A sample size of 2000 is (according to someone who understand statistics better than I do) is likely to produce reliable results ... within a range. And this reliability level isn't affected by the size of the total population the sample was drawn from.

The journalists who have reported this for the mainstream press have (it seems) used the simplified figures - properly they should be reported as a range, to take account of margins of error. But the standard margin of error at this level is 2.2%

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/sample-size-surveys

So, not fishy at all. But it would be interesting to know how they weighted it.

grey_til_I_dye

Kuching

Here's an explanation of the maths:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/howcan-a-poll-of-only-100/

Although it is more cautious about results, as it is referring to opinions.

Here is a bit more of the maths:

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/sample-size-surveys

This is quite detailed:

https://www.lipmanhearne.com/does-your-sample-size-matter/

Obviously, the validity of results assume a representative group fairly chosen.

TheMadcapLaughs

The holocaust is but one example in a long line of atrocities committed by humans on humans. It doesn`t matter that they are committed in the name of right wing ideologies, left wing ideologies, or in the name of race or religion. There is a common denominator that links them all, power and authority. All kids should not only be taught about the holocaust, but about all major atrocities across the ages including religious and ethnic cleansing and most certainly about slavery. I think there tends to be an over emphasis when teaching history on names, dates, battles etc and not enough emphasis on the socioeconomic factors and the struggle for power that always cause such events. Posters have already touched on the fact that history (worryingly) appears to be repeating itself. It will. Because we keep doing the same things. Unfortunately we don`t appear to learn the important lessons from history. Keep electing leaders, keep putting faith in a system that concentrates power and authority in the hands of a few, and the Erdogans, the Bolsanaros, the Trumps, the Putins and occasionally the Hitlers and Stalins will happen. We are conditioned to accept that the natural order of things allows for "a few" to decide the fate of "the many". We seem petrified of an alternative. And I don`t mean PR as opposed to FPTP. Teach about the holocaust, teach about slavery, teach about all the genocides and horrors of history. But to not ask why and how, to not challenge the premise that power and authority should rest with the few, and to not look for real alternatives at organising society, it becomes a pointless exercise. The war to end all wars. And repeat.

SuzanneClaret

TBH the only thing I remember being taught at school was the kings and queens of England.

It was my mum who taught me about the wider world including the holocaust and all its victims.

ASLEFshrugged

I was taught 20th century history inc. Hitler, Stalin, Mao at some point in the four years before we picked subjects for O Levels but my parents had lived through the war and told me all about the Holocaust. Plus I was (still am) interested in history from an early age.

Madcap could you please put some paragraph breaks in your posts. Thank you

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef ;ok

My mum was mad keen on history so I also took a keen interest. And as someone else said previously, The World at War should be required viewing. Can`t see that series ever being surpassed.

Suze. Kings and Queens. Battles and dates. Personally I find this sort of stuff more interesting:

https://workingclasshistory.com/

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

There is a common denominator that links them all, power and authority.

Couldn't disagree more. The common denominator is people. The root of atrocities and cruelty is in people, not in their institutions.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, I believe that people are inherently good. I take the opposite view, "the root of atrocities and cruelty is in people" then surely we are damned forever.

MrsGrey

No, because the root is there but it doesn't have to grow (to extend my metaphor ;biggrin )

BubblesNeverDies

MrsGrey, does that mean then that we are born to be cruel and commit atrocities?
Is it not the acquisition of power/money/authority that changes us?

BubblesNeverDies

MrsGrey, your post was obviously on its way before mine ;biggrin

TheMadcapLaughs

Surely, without those institutions in place, without the infrastructure, without the peoples blind faith in power and authority, Hitler would have been just a sad little man in the corner with a dodgy haircut and dodgier moustache. Without the institutions these people would be nobodies. Putin without the state would be just some middle aged, homo erotic, bare chested, horse riding, fly fishing oddity.

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

People, individuals, commit atrocities. There is no way around that. Hitler didn't personally commit many atrocities, I shouldn't think, but he offered an ideology where people could.

You seem to be arguing that without institutions, this would not be the case. I would argue that all that institutional organisation does is to enlarge the scale.

People like Hitler speak to, and give free reign to, the instincts in people that healthily organised societies curb.

You can argue whether the instinct to cruelty and violence is inherent in human nature, or simply a sickness in some people, but you can't argue that it is people, individuals, not organisations, that do the actual violence.

ASLEFshrugged

Pol Pot didn't need the institutions of the Cambodian state to carry out atrocities, he just had more people with guns than anyone else.

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef, I.E. he had more power than others. But what causes these people to commit atrocities? Surely it`s the pursuit of power. Without power, without authority, without our conditioning (i.e. to accept without question what our leaders tell us) surely Mr Jones the baker doesn`t become a bayonet wielding baby killer. If, from an early age, we are taught to not respect authority but to question it, if we are taught that the pursuit of power is socially unacceptable, if we are taught that no one has has the automatic right to tell you what to do, surely as a society, we may have a little bit of a mind shift. Teaching about the Holocaust does nothing if it doesn`t change our attitudes and mindset. History constantly repeating itself means that we are doing the same things wrong.

Grey, but Hitler offered up his ideology in a World where power and authority are blindly respected. What if people listened for a bit, shrugged and turned away. Things wouldn`t have turned out quite so bad. It`s the fact that nothing has changed, the fact that we are conditioned to accept and respect power and authority that allows the Pol Pots, the Hitlers and the Mussolinis to thrive. Whilst we accept that power and authority can be wielded by a tiny minority of people nothing will change, ever. If we approach it from the premise that no one has the absolute right to decide our fates but ourselves, then would be dictators become nobodies.

People carry out atrocities at the behest of leaders because they are conditioned to do so. Nothing else can explain why thousands of ordinary people suddenly become blood thirsty killers than the irrational respect held for power and authority.

grey_til_I_dye

Nothing else can explain why thousands of ordinary people suddenly become blood thirsty killers than the irrational respect held for power and authority.

Nothing for you, but that doesn't mean it is true.

I think it is as simple as recognising that many people have the potential, and the desire, to commit such terrible actions.

Political circumstances simply give them formal permission, with no consequences.

I don't believe those who worked in the Nazi prison camps thought:

'Well, this is what the Fuhrer wants, so best get on with it, even though I find it morally and physically repugnant.'

I don't believe people who commit war crimes are 'conditioned'; I think they want to, even if only in that precise moment.

Those who do it more than once clearly have a taste for it, imo.

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Grey, but Hitler offered up his ideology in a World where power and authority are blindly respected. What if people listened for a bit, shrugged and turned away.

Disagree with your spin on the situation.


Hitler didn't always have power and authority.

People listened to him when he was a nobody (relatively speaking) and there were other much more powerful figures/people in positions of authority. Some 'shrugged and turned away' but many more didn't. And in fact they clearly were not 'blindly respecting' those in power - in fact they REJECTED them.

They liked what Hitler had to say, and GAVE him the power and authority he asked for... because they shared his ideas and wanted his vision to be realised.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G. I`m arguing against the concept of power and authority. Yes, the people that installed Hitler into power rejected what was the current administration and replaced it with Hitler. Same concept, different faces. Given humanities apparent proclivity to butcher and maim why give anyone all the guns. Seems reckless to me.

chicagohammer

Unfortunately, the history of the human race has proven that there is a lot of truth in the quote, “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”

That is not to say that many leaders have gone on to do great things for the advancement of civilization but the cases where corruption and abuse take hold are unfortunately many.

One topic that give me pause is how little coverage is given to the abuse of the Japanese in WW2, many examples of abuse of allied POWs exist but it is not often that the scale of the atrocities perpetrated in China are exposed.

The list of detailed known cases of mistreatment of POWs is truly horrific but additionally, It is believed that somewhere between 4 and 10 million Chinese are thought to have perished at the hands of the Japanese between 1937 and 1945.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mr & Mrs G, I`m not arguing with the fact that there are a lot of nutters out there, I also agree that there will always be random horrific acts, and yes, buried deep within some of us are the tendencies (roots) to commit unspeakable horrors. But mass killings, genocides, are always state sponsored. Mr G, your phrase "Political circumstances simply give them formal permission, with no consequences" sums it up way better than I could ever put it. And the only point I (rather poorly) was trying to make is that teaching kids about the holocaust is vitally important to our understanding of the human psyche. But teaching the facts and figures of the holocaust is not learning from the holocaust. We always say "never again". Until the next time.

SuzanneClaret