The 'Couldn't think where to put this' thread part 2 or 'does my comment merit a NEW THREAD?'
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Comments
Well articulated, and I agree ;clap
There are probably lots of teams you can get tickets on general sale for.
What they do at the moment is sufficient, life bans from football & hand over evidence to the police for possible criminal charges
And the need to continue education on this sort of thing at school level and beyond
The few cases we have read about just recently (Salah, the banana skin one, Sterling) are just the tip of the iceberg: look at those quoted figures for people who say they see/hear incidents like this all the time. Very few of them get reported (I mean by ordinary folks, reported to the stewards or police) so nothing gets done about them.
The punishment of this tiny minority is having no effect on the much bigger minority who just carry on as before.
I think it's clear that existing strategies are useless. The stakes have to be raised.
But even if it that scenario does happen, as long as there's a thorough investigation to identify the offender and his background, it will quickly become apparent that he's not a 'real' fan. And the punishments can be meted out appropriately.
I don't think your hypothetical scenario is sufficient to block implementing additional measures.
I totally agree additional measures are needed but unless it came with assurances that there would be proper investigations before deductions, i wouldn't trust it.
There's been plenty of education in this country about the holocaust. You still get groups of supporters hissing when we play Tottenham.
I completely understand the message Antonio is trying to get across (we need to get radical & impose the strongest possible punishment), but to deduct points from a club due to a number of people who hold an attitude that will simply not change overnight is a pointless act, because their attitudes won't change as a result & therefore it won't stop. You can say that the threat of punishments like these may result in others around them turning on them but, again, that is also not what we need because it could result in ground violence, which is another matter entirely.
So what can be done, realistically? I completely agree with CCTV & pinpointing those responsible. They then need to be banned from any sporting event (football grounds at a minimum) for life. Then there needs to be an avenue to begin criminal proceedings against them which has to involve some sort of rehabilitation/educational programme. I would argue that even those programmes can have limited effects if it is an intrinsic, almost animalistic instinct to behave in that way; you could argue a psychiatrist is a better route to go down for all of them. Is that realistic?
There possibly needs to be greater education & emphasis on a 'whistleblowing' culture in the stadium, where it is acceptable to privately inform the stewards/police of potential criminal acts. One massive issue with this is that there is very much a tribal atmosphere in football which results in people who 'grass' (as they like to put it) being frowned upon. Again, this could lead to a scenario above where violence becomes an issue.
This is beyond a crime & punishment issue, because it transcends football. It is not an issue only in a 30,000 seater stadium, but in society. The sort of person who hurls that sort of abuse has grown up into that sort of person who turns to those instincts, possibly in an emotional scenario, such as football.
And to add, how bad has it got where we are talking about a "your club will lose points if you shout racist abuse" punishment in order to get people to refrain from hurling that disgusting abuse?
It is a massive problem & more does need to be done; but the fact we are still having these issues in 2019 says to me that implementing the right thing is proving very difficult for those in authority.
I don't think that radical actions following incidents at football grounds will change how those people think, but it might change how they behave, and it will certainly change the attitude of those in the crowd around them.
The incident at our club came to light because a fan recorded it, and made it public. Perhaps if more people in the crowd took exception to racist abuse, and stewards acted promptly, that might help.
I fully understand Antonio's position: whatever the authorities have done so far, it isn't enough, as it hasn't stopped racist abuse from appearing at football grounds, so maybe something more radical is needed.
Sections of football crowds seem to feel they are not bound by the norms of ordinary social behaviour.
Here's a bloke doing his job:
What other occupations would people feel it was OK to lob a beer bottle, and then a bottle of water at the person doing it? In most other circumstances you could expect to be arrested for assault.
The bile and abuse he was subjected to from fans in that corner was shameful, but they all seemed to think they had a perfect right to behave like that.
Which is why people have suggested that you would require further and careful investigation of such individuals, and that bans would be for all football games/stadiums.
I think it is a clever thing that Antonio has done.
He's suggested what could be done; if people don't think that is a good idea, then I'm sure he'd be interested in what else they would suggest, outside of what currently isn't working.
The administration of such things is almost impossible. Its a deterrent that isn't fully backed up.
Adding points deductions isn't the way to go you open up a whole can of worms.
I'm sure that if such a route was to be taken a thorough investigation would take place. If you can identify the person who engaged in the behaviour, it's not hard to work out their background. If a West Ham fan turned up at a Spurs game to try and get Spurs deducted points, and then was found to be a West Ham fan and we lost points as a result, then I'd like to think no West Ham fans would do something so stupid again.
I'd like to see an important player from the club say they want to leave because they don't want to represent a club whose fans think it's ok to be racist. Imagine if Kante had come out and said after the Sterling incident that he didn't want to represent Chelsea anymore because of it. Fans need to see actual repurcussions for their actions, and 'bans' are clearly not a sufficient as a deterrant.
But it's also a football problem because football stadiums are the rare place where tens of thousands of people gather weekly. It's also a place where hostility to the opposition is encouraged, and that can make for a great atmosphere but it can also spill over with some people. And there's a history of it in football - a lot of people from ethnic minorities are still wary of football fans.
I think grey's right: you can't change how they think but you can change how they behave.
For example, say your club is a point behind the league title winners going into the final game. Your team wins and the leaders lose and you win the title, then it comes to light someone shouted racist abuse during the game (lets assume the club would receive a 3 point deduction thereby your team losing the title if so)
1) Do people step up and report the guy in the first place knowing you may deny your team a title victory ? if they don't have we got any further with actually confronting the issue ? does the points deduction actually work in those circumstances when the stakes are that high ?
2) Or say someone does report it, the risks involved to both the perpetrator and to the person who reported the incident would be sky high ? especially in a football world.
Its such a can of worms.
I don't know what the answer is but I don't think going more radical solves the issue.
I think clubs in general are quick to act but don't enforce it. I honestly think some fans that are banned walk back in to the stadium a month later. Unless they start passport control style everyone who enters the stadium it will never be enforced properly.
Some approaches might work (or not) on tackling the first. But it goes beyond what a club alone can do.
However, there are a heck of a lot of things that have been proven to change behaviour, an dmany of these are withing the power of the clubs/FA to implement. imo we need to focus on stopping this behaviour by giving a few more of these as yet untried-in-football methods a go.
Certainly that would provide
some form ofthe Entertainment.Fixed it for ya. ;wink ;biggrin