The 'Couldn't think where to put this' thread part 2 or 'does my comment merit a NEW THREAD?'

alderz

Antonio's views on racist abuse at games: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47208847

Well articulated, and I agree ;clap

thornburyiron

I bet he wouldn’t be happy if ours is the first stadium to be closed.

MunichHammer

thornburyiron said:

I bet he wouldn’t be happy if ours is the first stadium to be closed.

But it will always be some team's stadium that gets closed. It has to start somewhere and I fully expect him to be annoyed at the time but it it helps eradicate racism (and homophobia) in stadiums then it will have been a good thing.

Moojor

alderz said:

Antonio's views on racist abuse at games: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47208847

Well articulated, and I agree ;clap

The problem with this is the ability for it to be abused. For instance, what is stopping a group of people who don't support the club intentionally getting tickets with the sole purpose of shouting racist abuse to get the club docked points or to get the playing behind closed doors.
There are probably lots of teams you can get tickets on general sale for.

Lukerz

A points deduction is never the way to go; makes no sense

What they do at the moment is sufficient, life bans from football & hand over evidence to the police for possible criminal charges

And the need to continue education on this sort of thing at school level and beyond

MrsGrey

I don't think enough is being done Luke. Because what is being done (and has been being done for decades) isn't working.

The few cases we have read about just recently (Salah, the banana skin one, Sterling) are just the tip of the iceberg: look at those quoted figures for people who say they see/hear incidents like this all the time. Very few of them get reported (I mean by ordinary folks, reported to the stewards or police) so nothing gets done about them.

The punishment of this tiny minority is having no effect on the much bigger minority who just carry on as before.

I think it's clear that existing strategies are useless. The stakes have to be raised.

MrsGrey

Moojor said:

The problem with this is the ability for it to be abused.

It may perhaps be the case (although I can't quite see the benefit to an individual getting another club into trouble - he'll still be subject to a banning order himself, so will lose out personally).

But even if it that scenario does happen, as long as there's a thorough investigation to identify the offender and his background, it will quickly become apparent that he's not a 'real' fan. And the punishments can be meted out appropriately.

I don't think your hypothetical scenario is sufficient to block implementing additional measures.

Moojor

MrsGrey said:

Moojor said:

The problem with this is the ability for it to be abused.

It may perhaps be the case (although I can't quite see the benefit to an individual getting another club into trouble - he'll still be subject to a banning order himself, so will lose out personally).

But even if it that scenario does happen, as long as there's a thorough investigation to identify the offender and his background, it will quickly become apparent that he's not a 'real' fan. And the punishments can be meted out appropriately.

I don't think your hypothetical scenario is sufficient to block implementing additional measures.

For instance, millwall fans get West tickets on general sale. Get club in trouble, don't care about being banned from West ham games for life.

I totally agree additional measures are needed but unless it came with assurances that there would be proper investigations before deductions, i wouldn't trust it.

MrsGrey

I'd have a ban from all football, not just the ground they offend at. Can't see why that's not the norm now tbh.

Moojor

Totally agree with that. That is also a change which doesn't require any extra work and they could implement straight away.

MrsGrey

;ok They should put us in charge ;biggrin

IronHerb

;run

MrsGrey

No running!

IronHerb

;bowdown

OutcastLondoner

Lukerz said:

A points deduction is never the way to go; makes no sense

What they do at the moment is sufficient, life bans from football & hand over evidence to the police for possible criminal charges

And the need to continue education on this sort of thing at school level and beyond

It can be incremental but there needs to be more than what's in place now. Put more at stake and others in the crowd will be quicker to turn on the abusers.

There's been plenty of education in this country about the holocaust. You still get groups of supporters hissing when we play Tottenham.

Lukerz

My point is that things like points deductions &, to a degree, bans (although I agree with the latter, it has to be a life ban from all football stadia), do not eradicate the issue because the issue here cannot be removed by deterrents. It isn't a simple "do this & you get your toy taken away", because this sort of attitude is ingrained into the psyche of some of these 'idiots' who still feel it is a good idea & acceptable to hurl abuse at players/managers/other fans, whether racist, homophobic or otherwise derogatory.

I completely understand the message Antonio is trying to get across (we need to get radical & impose the strongest possible punishment), but to deduct points from a club due to a number of people who hold an attitude that will simply not change overnight is a pointless act, because their attitudes won't change as a result & therefore it won't stop. You can say that the threat of punishments like these may result in others around them turning on them but, again, that is also not what we need because it could result in ground violence, which is another matter entirely.

So what can be done, realistically? I completely agree with CCTV & pinpointing those responsible. They then need to be banned from any sporting event (football grounds at a minimum) for life. Then there needs to be an avenue to begin criminal proceedings against them which has to involve some sort of rehabilitation/educational programme. I would argue that even those programmes can have limited effects if it is an intrinsic, almost animalistic instinct to behave in that way; you could argue a psychiatrist is a better route to go down for all of them. Is that realistic?

There possibly needs to be greater education & emphasis on a 'whistleblowing' culture in the stadium, where it is acceptable to privately inform the stewards/police of potential criminal acts. One massive issue with this is that there is very much a tribal atmosphere in football which results in people who 'grass' (as they like to put it) being frowned upon. Again, this could lead to a scenario above where violence becomes an issue.

This is beyond a crime & punishment issue, because it transcends football. It is not an issue only in a 30,000 seater stadium, but in society. The sort of person who hurls that sort of abuse has grown up into that sort of person who turns to those instincts, possibly in an emotional scenario, such as football.

And to add, how bad has it got where we are talking about a "your club will lose points if you shout racist abuse" punishment in order to get people to refrain from hurling that disgusting abuse?

It is a massive problem & more does need to be done; but the fact we are still having these issues in 2019 says to me that implementing the right thing is proving very difficult for those in authority.

alderz

It is a massive problem, but part of the issue with racist / homophobic / abusive rhetoric is that it seems in the past few years it has become slowly more socially 'acceptable' to hold those views. Yes, deducting points from clubs won't solve the issue and it won't stop the types of people who would scream that sort of stuff thinking the things they think, but the less visible it is the less ability it has to spreads as an acceptable viewpoint. If football fans police one another because they are scared of their team losing points, then it will quickly disappear from football stadiums, imo.

grey_til_I_dye

Thing is Luke, if it were simply a question of education, people would have got it by now. It is, regrettably, an attitude somehow ingrained in a section of society.

I don't think that radical actions following incidents at football grounds will change how those people think, but it might change how they behave, and it will certainly change the attitude of those in the crowd around them.

The incident at our club came to light because a fan recorded it, and made it public. Perhaps if more people in the crowd took exception to racist abuse, and stewards acted promptly, that might help.

I fully understand Antonio's position: whatever the authorities have done so far, it isn't enough, as it hasn't stopped racist abuse from appearing at football grounds, so maybe something more radical is needed.

Sections of football crowds seem to feel they are not bound by the norms of ordinary social behaviour.

Here's a bloke doing his job:



What other occupations would people feel it was OK to lob a beer bottle, and then a bottle of water at the person doing it? In most other circumstances you could expect to be arrested for assault.

The bile and abuse he was subjected to from fans in that corner was shameful, but they all seemed to think they had a perfect right to behave like that.

Yeoldhammer

Points deductions would lead down a very cautious road. You could get instances of non/rival-fans literally rolling up to a rivals stadium to just hurl abuse and get the home team deducted points which could have huge ramifications. A ban for life would do nothing in those circumstances if they didn't even support the team to begin with.

grey_til_I_dye

Yeold

Which is why people have suggested that you would require further and careful investigation of such individuals, and that bans would be for all football games/stadiums.

I think it is a clever thing that Antonio has done.

He's suggested what could be done; if people don't think that is a good idea, then I'm sure he'd be interested in what else they would suggest, outside of what currently isn't working.

Yeoldhammer

Grey with the ramifications for the club I don't think you could make it work. Even Antonio says himself in that piece people get banned and get back into stadiums.
The administration of such things is almost impossible. Its a deterrent that isn't fully backed up.

Adding points deductions isn't the way to go you open up a whole can of worms.

alderz

Yeold

I'm sure that if such a route was to be taken a thorough investigation would take place. If you can identify the person who engaged in the behaviour, it's not hard to work out their background. If a West Ham fan turned up at a Spurs game to try and get Spurs deducted points, and then was found to be a West Ham fan and we lost points as a result, then I'd like to think no West Ham fans would do something so stupid again.

I'd like to see an important player from the club say they want to leave because they don't want to represent a club whose fans think it's ok to be racist. Imagine if Kante had come out and said after the Sterling incident that he didn't want to represent Chelsea anymore because of it. Fans need to see actual repurcussions for their actions, and 'bans' are clearly not a sufficient as a deterrant.

OutcastLondoner

Yes Luke, it is a social problem and one that's even more sensitive now when many of the people who peddle racism feel emboldened and also threatened that many of the demographics they target are now in better positions to point it out because they're most established in British society. So race is spoken about more but the people who like to be racist but don't like to be called racist are lashing out. I don't think this is an environment where education is going to get you far when you can find a racist voice in mainstream media at any given moment.

But it's also a football problem because football stadiums are the rare place where tens of thousands of people gather weekly. It's also a place where hostility to the opposition is encouraged, and that can make for a great atmosphere but it can also spill over with some people. And there's a history of it in football - a lot of people from ethnic minorities are still wary of football fans.

I think grey's right: you can't change how they think but you can change how they behave.

Yeoldhammer

How can you trust a thorough investigation to take place though. We have clubs who do very well and profit from flaunting FFP rules. We have seen from Government states, to big corporations and FIFA itself corruption that can go around. I wouldn't actually put it past clubs or people in cushy places to meddle hard in these circumstances.

For example, say your club is a point behind the league title winners going into the final game. Your team wins and the leaders lose and you win the title, then it comes to light someone shouted racist abuse during the game (lets assume the club would receive a 3 point deduction thereby your team losing the title if so)

1) Do people step up and report the guy in the first place knowing you may deny your team a title victory ? if they don't have we got any further with actually confronting the issue ? does the points deduction actually work in those circumstances when the stakes are that high ?

2) Or say someone does report it, the risks involved to both the perpetrator and to the person who reported the incident would be sky high ? especially in a football world.

Its such a can of worms.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't think going more radical solves the issue.

IronHerb

I think you're missing the point Yeold. It's not about if someone shouts abuse, its how that incident is dealt with. If the club do nothing there is an issue. If the club deal with the problem then there is less of a problem.

Yeoldhammer

The club always do something, they hand out bans that do nothing really.

I think clubs in general are quick to act but don't enforce it. I honestly think some fans that are banned walk back in to the stadium a month later. Unless they start passport control style everyone who enters the stadium it will never be enforced properly.

grey_til_I_dye

As a report reveals that the failed London Garden Bridge cost the taxpayers some £43m of the £53m spent (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47228698), we fix the BBC graphic for them:

MrsGrey

grey/outcast - the point you make occurred to me also, when I was reading Lukerz post: the need to clearly distinguish between attitude/belief, and actions.

Some approaches might work (or not) on tackling the first. But it goes beyond what a club alone can do.

However, there are a heck of a lot of things that have been proven to change behaviour, an dmany of these are withing the power of the clubs/FA to implement. imo we need to focus on stopping this behaviour by giving a few more of these as yet untried-in-football methods a go.

MunichHammer

How about we stick people who hurl racist abuse in the pillory and let the subs take target practice at them during half time. Certainly that would provide some form of Entertainment ;whistle ;wink

BubblesNeverDies

Munich.
Certainly that would provide some form of the Entertainment.

Fixed it for ya. ;wink ;biggrin