The 'Couldn't think where to put this' thread part 2 or 'does my comment merit a NEW THREAD?'

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Comments

  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Part of the problem is that it’s history is no longer taught in most schools. My children, now in their forties, were taken to the concentration camps as part of their curriculum. The secondary school my granddaughter is now in has no plans to do such trips as at the moment none of the years 7-11 cover the world wars in their history.
    I’d be interested to see the demographics of the 5% who deny it and the 8.33% who think the numbers are exaggerated. Combined it’s a scary total.
    With the growing tendency of vandalism of memorials it’s a worrying trend.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    thorn

    it’s history is no longer taught in most schools.
    That isn't true. It is taught as part of the KS3 History curriculum, which all children follow (before they take options for GCSE's.) This is compulsory, not an option.
  • Dodger58Dodger58
    As a schoolboy of 17, I went on a cricket tour of British Armed Forces in Germany - so a group of self-confident young sportsmen. On the trip (in 1976) we were taken around the Bergen Belsen concentration camp. The camp was burned to avoid the spread of disease within days of it's discovery.

    All the pathways were still intact, there were white stones outlining every building, so you could picture the scene. There was a brick museum built where the gatehouse had once stood.

    The museum was full of old fading black and white photos of the scenes the 'liberators' found. There was little left to the imagination, although I would be surprised if they images had not already been 'sanitised' to a large degree.

    One of the things that most struck me (as a cocky young man) was the total lack of wildlife on the site. No sounds of crickets in the grass, no sign of any life. Even in the air no birds flew over. I haven't been back there since, so I don't know if signs of life have returned all these years later.

    But clearly I have never forgotten - and it is extremely important that we are not allowed to forget - the lessons of the past must be shared and learned.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited January 2019
    The deliberate targetting and extermination of groups of people* by the Nazis extended beyond the Jews. (I'm sure you well-informed folks know that, but it is something that is even more forgotten than the Shoah). Depending on which figures you use, Jewish deaths account for between a third and a half of the total number.

    I think it is a shame that this wider meaning of 'Holocaust' is largely ignored, because when you teach the Holocaust as just an anti-semitic programme, the lessons history teaches us are incomplete.

    *amongst whom were Roma, Slavs, Poles, disabled people, people with learning difficulties, catholics, homosexual people...
  • PrestonHammerPrestonHammer
    Dodger58

    A mate of mine was based in Germany and speaking to him 15 years or so ago, he said the same thing about Belsen and the surrounding area. He said it was just dead, no wildlife, nothing.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Grey I know it is compulsory but it is not taught how I was taught or how my children were taught in lots of schools. From my friend’s grandchildren experiences it seems it was briefly referred to under a subject which covered various disparate topics.
    I think it should be seriously covered by including visits to the camps or film footage of what these camps were like. I doubt that would happen however as it would be considered too harrowing but it would help make people understand.
    As I said I’d like to know the demographics of the poll sample and the groups within the various percentages.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    I learnt about the Nazis without having to go outside of Dagenham but at a time when some schools are struggling to afford text books overseas trips are not going to be a priority.

    I looked at the websites for Holocaust Memorial Day Trust who commissioned the survey and Opinions Matter who conducted it but neither of them has published the actual data. They surveyed 2000 people and then "weighed" the results to reflect UK demographics.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    In 2016 University College London released a report after surveying 9500 secondary school kids, the general summery seems to be that while 85% had been taught about the Holocaust by Year 10 not many knew more than the basics.

    Maybe its not kids that have the problem...

    https://www.holocausteducation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/What-do-students-know-and-understand-about-the-Holocaust1.pdf
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    That is quite interesting. I've only got to the end of Ch 1, but it is already thought-provoking ;ok
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    The fact that it is (quite properly) a compulsory aspect of education should, imo, only be part of the story.

    Parents and relatives have a responsibility to make sure that their children understand the need for acceptance of difference, and the moral and political dangers of extremism.

    If there are children that don't know about the Holocaust, that is not, imo, simply a failure of schooling.
  • Dodger58Dodger58
    There was a brilliant series on the 1970s called The World at War, narrated by Laurence Olivier, I bought the DVD set for my own children’s education as I believed it should be in School syllabus, but never was.

    One of the episodes was specifically about the camps, it should be compulsory viewing. But I’m afraid, as Thorn says above, it would be viewed as too harrowing for today.

    I would also strongly recommend the film Denial, based on Deborah Lipstadt's book History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier, to those who have not yet seen it.
  • MunichHammerMunichHammer
    I was a teacher of history at German schools and the 3rd Reich takes up at least half a scholl year in the Curriculum. Usually it also includes a visit to a concentration camp and I have been to two different ones so far, Mauthausen as a pupil and Dachau as a teacher.

    I know that you will never reach all the pupils but from a general perspective, every pupil you do reach is worth the effort.


    I find the current political movement in Germany and Europe altogether extremely worrying, as it reminds me of the 1930's again. The 20's were a period of Wealth, similar to the times since the war but now people are forgetting the horrors of the right wing parties and vote them into parliament all across the continent.
  • Dodger58Dodger58
    Munich whilst I generally agree, I would suggest that the 'horrors' are not restricted to 'right' or 'left' politics - they is a lot to be wary of from both extremes.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Munich, I'll have to correct you there about the 20's being a period of wealth if you're referring to Germany.
    In July 1923 there were 353,412 marks to the dollar, in November, 4,200,000,000,000.
  • MunichHammerMunichHammer
    Bubbles - the 20s are usually referred to as a golden age. Even in Germany. I did not have any specific exchange rate in mind but rather the general consensus.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Munich, I'm reading "The Dark Valley" by Piers Brendon and the 20s were anything but a golden age. ;ok
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Munich, my mistake, 1924-1929 were a golden age ;ok
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    I recommend "Before the deluge" by Otto Friedrich.

    It might have been a "Golden Age" for some but for a lot of people it was a pretty miserable time which is why Hitler was able to exploit the discontent.

    Politically it was chaos with numerous changes of government, the shortest being Herman Muller's 86 days as Chancellor in 1920 although he lasted longer the second time, from June 1928 until March 1930.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Sounds familiar.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    I recall visiting Sachenhasuen outside Berlin, it is what and where you expect such a place to be, in the woods, off the beaten track and out of sight, then I visited Dachau and was astonished to see that it was in the center of the village, there is no way the residents had no idea what was going on, I submit that many felt powerless, but they knew.

    Mrs Grey is correct in that the evils perpetrated by the Nazi regime extended beyond the persecution of the Jews, they considered numerous races and those of a different disposition as sub human and treated them ruthlessly and without mercy, but the extermination of the Jews was a central focus of Nazi ideology and I think that it is what elevates and focuses the fate of the Jews when discussioning the Holocaust.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Chicago, you make an interesting observation re collusion. It's something I wasn't too aware of, but in the report that ASLEF linked to, they highlight the issue of widespread collusion by ordinary folk and other regimes, as well as the issue that the UK and others knew what was going on before the camps were 'discovered'. They raise the fact that these aspects are often not addressed in the teaching/ wider discussion.
  • MunichHammerMunichHammer
    Chicago- Dachau was the first concentration camp and started off as a Prison for political dissenters. Yes, there was a crematorium and small gas Chambers but it wasn't what most people think of when they hear concentration camp. THAT would be something like Auschwitz or Treblinka.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Most of the murders were in Poland, not Germany - is that right, Munich?
  • MunichHammerMunichHammer
    As far as I am aware, yes. The Nazis wanted their "Lebensraum im Osten" (Living space in the east) so they built up their main camps as far east as they could.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Btw if anyone claims the British invented concentration camps during the Boer War we got the idea from the Americans who used them in the Philippines who got the idea from the Spanish who used them in Cuba who got the idea from the American reservation system.
  • KuchinghammerKuchinghammer
    I'm going to write a long comment later, since I taught 20c History back in 70s and 80s Essex... but for now...
    A sample of 2,000? Taken when and where? To represent the entire UK population of 60+million?
    Something very fishy about this
    ;hmm
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited January 2019
    kuching

    It was commissioned by the HMDT, and carried out by a polling company 'Opinion matters' https://www.hmd.org.uk/news/we-release-research-to-mark-holocaust-memorial-day-2019/

    The sample make up was weighted to reflect the make up of the UK adult population.

    A sample size of 2000 is (according to someone who understand statistics better than I do) is likely to produce reliable results ... within a range. And this reliability level isn't affected by the size of the total population the sample was drawn from.

    The journalists who have reported this for the mainstream press have (it seems) used the simplified figures - properly they should be reported as a range, to take account of margins of error. But the standard margin of error at this level is 2.2%

    https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/sample-size-surveys

    So, not fishy at all. But it would be interesting to know how they weighted it.



  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Kuching

    Here's an explanation of the maths:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/howcan-a-poll-of-only-100/

    Although it is more cautious about results, as it is referring to opinions.

    Here is a bit more of the maths:

    https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/sample-size-surveys

    This is quite detailed:

    https://www.lipmanhearne.com/does-your-sample-size-matter/

    Obviously, the validity of results assume a representative group fairly chosen.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    The holocaust is but one example in a long line of atrocities committed by humans on humans. It doesn`t matter that they are committed in the name of right wing ideologies, left wing ideologies, or in the name of race or religion. There is a common denominator that links them all, power and authority. All kids should not only be taught about the holocaust, but about all major atrocities across the ages including religious and ethnic cleansing and most certainly about slavery. I think there tends to be an over emphasis when teaching history on names, dates, battles etc and not enough emphasis on the socioeconomic factors and the struggle for power that always cause such events. Posters have already touched on the fact that history (worryingly) appears to be repeating itself. It will. Because we keep doing the same things. Unfortunately we don`t appear to learn the important lessons from history. Keep electing leaders, keep putting faith in a system that concentrates power and authority in the hands of a few, and the Erdogans, the Bolsanaros, the Trumps, the Putins and occasionally the Hitlers and Stalins will happen. We are conditioned to accept that the natural order of things allows for "a few" to decide the fate of "the many". We seem petrified of an alternative. And I don`t mean PR as opposed to FPTP. Teach about the holocaust, teach about slavery, teach about all the genocides and horrors of history. But to not ask why and how, to not challenge the premise that power and authority should rest with the few, and to not look for real alternatives at organising society, it becomes a pointless exercise. The war to end all wars. And repeat.
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    TBH the only thing I remember being taught at school was the kings and queens of England.

    It was my mum who taught me about the wider world including the holocaust and all its victims.
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