American Election Discussion

billybondsbeard

Dodger58 said:

A more sensible one:

That would be correct in Cornwall, however, a Devon Cream tea is Cream first.

I must get out more.............................

NEoldiron

In light of the recent adjustment of the Doomsday Clock, how prescient was this from 1969

OutcastLondoner

5 killed in mosque shooting Canada http://linkis.com/QACkE

Kuchinghammer

Ok first off I'll admit to having an MA in American History. Second I'll agree that makes me no wiser than any other. Third (see, I can count too) I have deliberately avoided making comments until the new President started acting rather than talking. Many people are comparing him to Hitler or Stalin (bullying the media, xenophobia, attacking minority groups, appeal to the dissatisfied & angry National etc) but I think he's consciously or instinctively following the pattern of Huey Long, the Louisiana Kingfish. Long was hugely popular, and had his sights set on being President, but someone shot him first.
PS grammarians can add the "ly" after each number, but I'm writing in American mode.
PPS feel free to present information supporting or demolishing my off-the-cuff assertions. It was just a thought.... ;hmm

alderz

All my American friends have been telling me that the majority of Trump supports they know have gone strangely silent and will not engage in discussion around any of his antics. Funny that I came on here to see 40 new comments and not one of them from the one person on here who supports that monster.

NEoldiron

Alderz - who would that be then? Does he have an amazing dancing bear? ;wink

alderz

Yeah, he voted for one.

OutcastLondoner

Kuchinghammer said:

Ok first off I'll admit to having an MA in American History. Second I'll agree that makes me no wiser than any other. Third (see, I can count too) I have deliberately avoided making comments until the new President started acting rather than talking. Many people are comparing him to Hitler or Stalin (bullying the media, xenophobia, attacking minority groups, appeal to the dissatisfied & angry National etc) but I think he's consciously or instinctively following the pattern of Huey Long, the Louisiana Kingfish. Long was hugely popular, and had his sights set on being President, but someone shot him first.
PS grammarians can add the "ly" after each number, but I'm writing in American mode.
PPS feel free to present information supporting or demolishing my off-the-cuff assertions. It was just a thought.... ;hmm

I have an MSc in International History and agree ;biggrin

His first week reminds me so much of something we studied regarding Latin American populism - a populist leader has to make a speech every day and promise things to the crowd, he has to keep up the act. Trump's first week has been furious and it can't really slow much.

MrsGrey

So.

1. The travel ban will only apply to British dual nationality citizens if they areflying directly from the listed countries to the States. (Official FO statement last night, after Bozzer had a chat with Jared Kushner)

2. If you are British dual nationality citizen currently in Germany, you are banned from flying to the States if you need a visa. (US Embassy in Berlin has announced no visas will be issued to anyone with dual nationality citizenship of a listed country.)

Those two statements can't both be true.

OutcastLondoner

They're making it up as they go along.
If you're interested, I've collected a lot of the writing on it here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/convivencia/talking-points-trumps-muslim-ban/814153462058771

MrsGrey

outcast

They are indeed.

Part of the issue seems to me to be that Trump and his 'inner circle' are forging ahead, without sufficient input from qualified and experienced advisers. Whether that is arrogance or ignorance, who can say. But the results speak for themselves.

The problems arising from the haste/lack of care have been exacerbated by inadequate (ie no) information given to frontline staff (airports, airlines, customs and security etc) who have to try to implement it. So there is massive inconsistency about how people are being dealt with.

Then there were some successful legal challenges to deportations and detentions which were ignored.

Yet officials can describe it as a 'massive success'. (Presumably using an 'alternative dictionary.')

ASLEFshrugged

Has anyone pointed out that people from the four countries where the 9/11 bombers came from - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Lebanon - are not on the banned list?

MrsGrey

MrsGrey said:

Those two statements can't both be true.

Oh, I hadn't realised when I posted that comment that the US Embassies had all posted the same advice, not just the one in Berlin.

So, are they stringing Bozzer along? Or did he not understanding what they were telling him?

Interested to hear his statement in the Commons later.

MrsGrey

ASLEFshrugged said:

Has anyone pointed out that people from the four countries where the 9/11 bombers came from - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Lebanon - are not on the banned list?

Lots of people, yes ;ok

Some of those have also pointed out that Trump has financial interests in some of those countries.

IronHerb

Have you ever understood anything Boris has said? ;hmm

OutcastLondoner

ASLEFshrugged said:

Has anyone pointed out that people from the four countries where the 9/11 bombers came from - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Lebanon - are not on the banned list?

Plenty but don't think it's a good argument against it, as it kind of suggests in some cases the ban is ok.

The countries were actual taken from some restrictions under the Obama administration, they're not actually Trump's choices.

MrsGrey

More on the impact on UK citizens, and the apparent contradiction in what Bozzer announced and what the US Embassies are actually doing:

from the PMs spokesperson...

Britons are not getting special treatment in relation to the travel ban, the spokesman said. He said the Foreign Office statement last night about how the new US rules affected dual nationals was not intended to mean that British dual nationals were getting preferential treatment. It was meant to be a clarification of how the rules affected dual nationals generally.

A clarification? How's that working out then?

simonc

I have waited to comment on this thread until some of the dust had settled & the facts became clear. Although i disagree & do not see the benefit in this action especially since a # of obvious countries are missing from the list, this was a campaign promise so should not come as such a surprise. Obviously the implementation could have been far better.

SuzanneClaret

I have an o'level in social and economic History of the English industrial revolution.


Whilst we are sharing.

PrestonHammer

I have a bricklaying City and Guilds but I'm not letting on to Trump... ;whistle

IronHerb

I'm thick. I look up to you lot..... ;biggrin

Hammerwombat

25 yards swimming certificate, and knot tying badge in the cubs ;ok

NEoldiron

Herb, I'll tell you who I look up to -



















astonomers
;yercoat

IronHerb

Why? Are they particularly tall where you are? ;lol

grey_til_I_dye

MrsGrey

I got my life-saving certificate in swimming, for which I had to pick up a shot-put from the bottom of the pool, and swim 25m while 'rescuing' another kid in my class who was pretending to be unconscious.

grey_til_I_dye

simon

Surely, aside from the odious nature of the order, and it's frankly dubious necessity, everyone should be concerned by the amateurish way this was rushed out?

Why didn't he have advisers around him capable of telling him the inevitable consequences of such an ill-thought out and ill-prepared order?

Why have an adviser who dismisses the sufferings of many thousands as not significant?

You have a president who is clearly prepared to act first, and then not even really think much later.

That should, imo, be of grave concern not just to US citizens, but to people everywhere.

Swissiron

this is because it's a smokescreen, while all this was going on he sacked key people from the national security council and brought in Steve bannon, who can now decide on matters such as state determined assassinations, which have been possible in the US already for a while, but not as decided by a white supremacist fascist

MrsGrey

He tweeted today that it had to be done so precipitately because otherwise, if they announced it with a week's notice before it came into effect, the bad dudes would have rushed in before the deadline.

1. The 'immediate effect' aspect is really not the one that's causing the most consternation, Donald. ;doh

2. Even if it were that easy to get a visa within a week (which it often isn't), who said it had to be a week's notice?

3. And even if that rationale is valid, why where you not capable of anticipating the problems that would occur, and have put in place some plan or guidance to minimise the effects?

alderz

I would be embarrassed to be represented by him. The people who voted for him must realise how this is making them look too. Supporting him is tantamount to supporting facism, racism, sexism. A lot of my friends have told me that their family members voted for him, and they are good people. But IMO it gets to a point where, if you are still supporting him, your status as a "good person" has to be questioned.