Generally most of the above really. You keep saying that “ we’re kicking the can down the road”, I just don’t see that at all. Regarding players not getting game time, well that’s based on what the manager/ coaches see in training. Some signings work out( Bowen) some don’t ( Cornet) it’s the same at every club. I agree that some of our performances have been poor but all clubs go through that don’t they, and just look where we are at the halfway point in the season, not too shabby is it?
You keep saying that “ we’re kicking the can down the road”, I just don’t see that at all.
You don't think that there's an awful lot of work to be done on the squad between now and September? Fabianski might be worth another season if Thursday is anything to go by, but he is 39 in April and he does seem slower getting down to shots than he used to be; it was the same with Jussi towards the end. Do you think we'll get another season out of Cresswell? Ogbonna? Antonio? How much are they contributing this season? We've kept them too long, they are of little to no use this season so we're running the core squad into the ground for the third season running. Those are some of the cans we've kicked down the road, and now they're going to all have to dealt with alongside numerous other issues.
Should Ings be here at all? What about Johnson, is he good enough, and will he even sign a new contract (he's refused the one he's been offered, and he's getting no game time)? Mubama hasn't signed the contract he's been offered. Fornals and Benrahma seem to be regressing. Kehrer barely gets game time, and, although he was out with injury for a long time, the same is now true of Cornet. It may be true that they don't show enough in training, but Moyes signed them both and if they aren't good enough they'll need to leave and be replaced.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a lot of our performances this season have been pretty poor, and, imo, we're lucky to have the points on the board that we have. Against Chelsea and Spurs we were absolutely battered in the first half (yes, I know a match is 90 minutes not 45), and on another day we'd have seen scorelines like yesterday. Burnley was a smash and grab, we amazingly managed to win a game that we didn't really look like getting anything from once we went behind. We also had to come from behind to beat Forest. So yes, we're 9th in the table atm, but we could easily be much lower (and I suspect we will be come the end of the season) and so many of the performances have been pretty turgid imo.
And in a cup quarter final and still in Europe. Yeah some will need replacing, it’s called a natural cycle, same as 91 other clubs. It’s hardly “ a messy situation left by Moyes”.
And in a cup quarter final and still in Europe. Yeah some will need replacing, it’s called a natural cycle, same as 91 other clubs. It’s hardly “ a messy situation left by Moyes”.
If we end up losing 10 players from the current squad (which I think is very possible, I have question marks against 14 of the current 25 as to whether they'll be here next season, and only one of those is because we might have had a "too good to refuse" bid) then I think that's quite a messy situation for a new manager to inherit.
1. No I do not think our performances have largely been good, 2 No I actually do not think the squad needs a lot of work between now and September - I agree that rebuilding need to take place but that will hopefully be the remit of whomever comes in once DMs contract is allowed to end 3 Some have and some haven’t
I have been in the DM out club for quite a while now but what I do strongly disagree with is the idea that he has been “neglectful” with “no regard for the future of the club” and I do not agree that the new man will have his work cut out sort out “the mess left behind”
His record in this league and with us is one to be pretty proud of and he should be granted all the respect that record deserves.
Do not get me wrong, I have thought for some time that his race was run and I was in favor of releasing him last year so that the new face could build the team with the Rice money, especially knowing that at the time there where a couple of credible and interesting options.
The European run made it difficult to let him go last year and I get that, however, having kept him at the helm for this year, I see no reason to release him before the end of his contract.
All that being said, Despite our league position, I have not seen anything that has made me change my mind and I would be very surprised and disappointed if his contract is renewed at the end of this season
Check out the West Ham stats site and Moyes has one of the most successful records of all the managers we have had. Ignoring any interim manager such as Brooking, Roeder, Keen etc and some committee in the early 1900’s he is near or at the top for league, cup and Europe.
It is well worth listening to the last 10 minuets or so (08.50 - 09.00) of the Today program on radio 4 today. A very interesting discussion with football analysts about why teams like Chelsea and Man Utd under perform despite spending billions and teams like Brighton and Brentford over perform on far less money, it's all about the use of data, not having very deep pockets. Also having a stable environment, not changing manager too often or making too many changes at once to the playing squad.
I would have hoped that between now and Summer, before any contract renewal, that the club would have infrastructure in place. Scouting networks / Data and Analytics departments for any new manager to step into with everything they need at their disposal should they not renew Moyes contract.
I think Tim Steidten was the beginning of such a plan, but ultimately unless Moyes can get the team to play a more expansive game, I think any Data and Analytics and scouting operations alongside Tim Steidten will be looking at something completely different to the style of fooball than what Moyes would want in his team.
Considering how well Leverkusen are going in the Bundesliga that Steidten just came from and the types of players and football they are playing with, and a very dynamic progressive young manager in Xabi Alonso. I am hoping that a similar operation can start here in a similar vein and i think it will mean David Moyes moving on.
In one week, Moyes will have been in charge for the same length of time as Sam Allardyce managed, and by the end of the season he'll have overtaken Billy Bonds for time in charge.
In one week, Moyes will have been in charge for the same length of time as Sam Allardyce managed, and by the end of the season he'll have overtaken Billy Bonds for time in charge.
In one week, Moyes will have been in charge for the same length of time as Sam Allardyce managed, and by the end of the season he'll have overtaken Billy Bonds for time in charge.
alderz that sounds like a brilliant opportunity for a stats guru to do some kind of comparison. If only we knew someone like that......
It's tricky to know what to compare, tbh. Allardyce and Bonds had spells in the Championship (or the equivalently named division of the team), Moyes has had spells against some real weaklings in Europe. You can't really compare much for style of play, as most stats sites don't go back too far. But if you're interested in pure numbers
There's no denying we've had some good PL finishes under Moyes, and so he'd end up with a decent win percentage anyway, but, as I've said before, there's no doubt his figures are very skewed by the substandard level of the opposition throughout the Europa Conference run and in the group stages of both Europa League campaigns.
Similarly, many other managers had a season or more outside the top flight; if you compare Allardyce's 38.1 with Bilic's 37.8 you'd think there's not much to choose, but Allardyce had a season in the Championship where he had a better than 50% win rate in the league.
I have done this very quickly because I'm about to go out (apologies if anyone finds an error while I'm out), but I've just recreated that table for only top flight games, and it stays just as good for Moyes.
My spreadsheet doesn't cover all of Ron Greenwood's time in charge, so I've got rid of him and anyone before him, because I don't have the time or energy to find any extra stuff.
Cheers, hopefully that wasn't too much work for you as I think we've had a similar discussion (and a similar top-flight only table) on here before. It presents a much fairer comparison imo, and shows what a difference it can make; Avram Grant drops from 31.9% (not great, but not dreadful) to a bottom-of-the-pile (barring Keen in a caretaker stint) win rate of just 18.9% over just one season. Bonds drops spectacularly from 43.6% to just 26.2%. Allardyce drops from a pretty decent 38.1% to just 30.7%.
I'm playing Football Manager, and David Sullivan just sacked David Moyes and replaced him with Sam Allardyce. This is the sort of nightmare that keeps me #MoyesIn.
Tonight’s result will have a lot of West Ham fans happy . Those just waiting for a reason to stick the knife in. Those who’ve forgotten that we’re 8th in the league and in Europe, the same people who can’t wait to criticise players after ten minutes and can’t understand why we’re not in the top six every season.
Tonight’s result will have a lot of West Ham fans happy . Those just waiting for a reason to stick the knife in. Those who’ve forgotten that we’re 8th in the league and in Europe, the same people who can’t wait to criticise players after ten minutes and can’t understand why we’re not in the top six every season.
That's not it at all, but the Cup win last season covered over a lot of cracks with how Moyes managed his squad, and a number of the performances this season have been very poor. We have too small a core of players that Moyes will willingly use, the rest are basically on the outside and are well aware they are, so poor recruitment and poor management of available resources.
Then he chooses to throw this game with his selection and refusal to change things up at half time, when there's only Fulham, Boro and Chelsea left in the competition. Completely misjudged what the priorities should be.
I am obviously one of those firmly in the Moyes Out brigade. However, if you look at my posts (over any length of time) I dont get on the players backs.
I dislike the way we are set up and our lack of versatility in terms of formation changes during the game or even from game to game depending on who we are playing. We get set up scared to lose and hoping against hope the other side is poor and we take our counter attack chances.
Its not how what we've been associated with play wise and I simply dont like it! I do like to watch Arsenal, Villa, Liverpool for example. I actually dont expect us to transform dramatically into a freeflowing football side but I would like to see someone in charge with a much more attacking philosophy!
I've watched West Ham since the mid 70's and like others have witness some humbling defeats. However, I could never say I was bored by our play and tactics. When we do play well now its really a bit of a surprise.
Lastly, I dont deny Moyes record/achievements. I just dont care for the way he goes about things.
I've watched West Ham since the mid 70's and like others have witness some humbling defeats. However, I could never say I was bored by our play and tactics
I think under Allardyce we just had a far weaker team. I wouldnt swear to not being bored by any of the games he took charge of.... But I was definitely nervy and pessimistic a lot of the time about our chances of winning games
Comments
You keep saying that “ we’re kicking the can down the road”, I just don’t see that at all.
Regarding players not getting game time, well that’s based on what the manager/ coaches see in training. Some signings work out( Bowen) some don’t ( Cornet) it’s the same at every club.
I agree that some of our performances have been poor but all clubs go through that don’t they, and just look where we are at the halfway point in the season, not too shabby is it?
Should Ings be here at all? What about Johnson, is he good enough, and will he even sign a new contract (he's refused the one he's been offered, and he's getting no game time)? Mubama hasn't signed the contract he's been offered. Fornals and Benrahma seem to be regressing. Kehrer barely gets game time, and, although he was out with injury for a long time, the same is now true of Cornet. It may be true that they don't show enough in training, but Moyes signed them both and if they aren't good enough they'll need to leave and be replaced.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a lot of our performances this season have been pretty poor, and, imo, we're lucky to have the points on the board that we have. Against Chelsea and Spurs we were absolutely battered in the first half (yes, I know a match is 90 minutes not 45), and on another day we'd have seen scorelines like yesterday. Burnley was a smash and grab, we amazingly managed to win a game that we didn't really look like getting anything from once we went behind. We also had to come from behind to beat Forest. So yes, we're 9th in the table atm, but we could easily be much lower (and I suspect we will be come the end of the season) and so many of the performances have been pretty turgid imo.
Yeah some will need replacing, it’s called a natural cycle, same as 91 other clubs.
It’s hardly “ a messy situation left by Moyes”.
But, as always, it's all about dem onions.
1. No I do not think our performances have largely been good,
2 No I actually do not think the squad needs a lot of work between now and September - I agree that rebuilding need to take place but that will hopefully be the remit of whomever comes in once DMs contract is allowed to end
3 Some have and some haven’t
I have been in the DM out club for quite a while now but what I do strongly disagree with is the idea that he has been “neglectful” with “no regard for the future of the club” and I do not agree that the new man will have his work cut out sort out “the mess left behind”
His record in this league and with us is one to be pretty proud of and he should be granted all the respect that record deserves.
Do not get me wrong, I have thought for some time that his race was run and I was in favor of releasing him last year so that the new face could build the team with the Rice money, especially knowing that at the time there where a couple of credible and interesting options.
The European run made it difficult to let him go last year and I get that, however, having kept him at the helm for this year, I see no reason to release him before the end of his contract.
All that being said, Despite our league position, I have not seen anything that has made me change my mind and I would be very surprised and disappointed if his contract is renewed at the end of this season
Well you did ask 😉
Ignoring any interim manager such as Brooking, Roeder, Keen etc and some committee in the early 1900’s he is near or at the top for league, cup and Europe.
I don't expect Moyes to go anywhere in the summer and I don't see any major problems with the squad.
Arteta and Moyes are next, both with nearly 4 years but after that you've got Marco Silva who took over at Fulham in July 2021.
I think Tim Steidten was the beginning of such a plan, but ultimately unless Moyes can get the team to play a more expansive game, I think any Data and Analytics and scouting operations alongside Tim Steidten will be looking at something completely different to the style of fooball than what Moyes would want in his team.
Considering how well Leverkusen are going in the Bundesliga that Steidten just came from and the types of players and football they are playing with, and a very dynamic progressive young manager in Xabi Alonso. I am hoping that a similar operation can start here in a similar vein and i think it will mean David Moyes moving on.
Similarly, many other managers had a season or more outside the top flight; if you compare Allardyce's 38.1 with Bilic's 37.8 you'd think there's not much to choose, but Allardyce had a season in the Championship where he had a better than 50% win rate in the league.
My spreadsheet doesn't cover all of Ron Greenwood's time in charge, so I've got rid of him and anyone before him, because I don't have the time or energy to find any extra stuff.
Yup we’re turning into Chelsea.
Those just waiting for a reason to stick the knife in.
Those who’ve forgotten that we’re 8th in the league and in Europe, the same people who can’t wait to criticise players after ten minutes and can’t understand why we’re not in the top six every season.
Then he chooses to throw this game with his selection and refusal to change things up at half time, when there's only Fulham, Boro and Chelsea left in the competition. Completely misjudged what the priorities should be.
I dislike the way we are set up and our lack of versatility in terms of formation changes during the game or even from game to game depending on who we are playing. We get set up scared to lose and hoping against hope the other side is poor and we take our counter attack chances.
Its not how what we've been associated with play wise and I simply dont like it! I do like to watch Arsenal, Villa, Liverpool for example. I actually dont expect us to transform dramatically into a freeflowing football side but I would like to see someone in charge with a much more attacking philosophy!
I've watched West Ham since the mid 70's and like others have witness some humbling defeats. However, I could never say I was bored by our play and tactics. When we do play well now its really a bit of a surprise.
Lastly, I dont deny Moyes record/achievements. I just dont care for the way he goes about things.
I don't believe you.
Sam Allardyce, for a start?