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Comments
Once the UK leaves, with no deal, you have a border between the EU countries and the UK across the island of Ireland. There will have to be passport checks, border and customs inspections, etc.
Different customs rules, regulations, VAT rates and standards will apply in Northern Ireland and the Republic , so the different rules would have to be enforced.
One solution might be just to trade with the rest of the world, and stop all trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Is that what you think should happen?
I have never found anyone able to make an argument about how we become better off through Brexit and the best anyone tries is sending Liam Fox to do wonderful trade deals that are just waiting to be offered. What this negotiation with the EU should have taught is that when you have no power or leverage in the negotiation you come out badly, and so all of Liam Fox's brilliant trade deals will of course follow the same pattern, what was so attractive to many companies was using us as the gateway to the EU. We used to be arguably the second most powerful nation in the EU, whilst now Theresa May is dancing her silly dance and gurning everywhere like a beggar whenever she meets them, knowing full well we need appeal to the EU to be saved from ourselves.
Since the beginning I have always thought it would either not happen or in name only and I still feel this to be the case. The lesson I hope is learned after the damage is repaired is that never again will politicians play such stupid party political games with democracy and politics.
To allow a simple majority to decide the result was negligent in the extreme; imagine if the result had been 50.1% to 49.9%, in favour of leave.
There should have been a minimum limit of at least 20% to effect a change in the status quo, i.e. 60% to 40%.
The minimum limit would have also ensured that the result was not unduly affected by readers of the rabid headlines of the Daily Fail, Express, Sun etc.
There really does need to be a Peoples' Vote now that the reality of Brexit is beginning to appear.
Of course, there will still be the die-hard Fail, Express, Sun readers who will not change their minds, but, along with the demographic change since the referendum (more young people reaching voting age), I'm fairly certain (and this was backed up by recent polls) that the vote would be to remain.
On the Ireland thing the Good Friday Agreement says that the economic regulations have to be the same on both sides of the border so the choices are either withdraw from the GFA and put up border controls between the two Irelands or we treat Northern Ireland as separate from the rest of the UK.
The GFA isn't a piece of UK legislation we can simply repeal through parliament, its a treaty signed between the UK and Irish governments, generally breaking international treaties isn't regarded as a good thing.
The electoral system in the UK is deeply unrepresentative.
Let's not pretend that suggesting, or delivering, a second referendum, now that the consequences of withdrawal fro the EU are clear, is somehow undemocratic.
That's probably true.
However, I'd have more faith in a second vote, where people are given a choice based on known outcomes, compared to the first vote which was based on speculation and outright lies, and which involved the breaking of electoral rules.
I`m sorry, but am I missing something?
There are no definite, definitive, concrete outcomes. No-one knows what will happen.
"we will be left weaker.......and poorer economically"
Quite possibly, but for how long, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, in perpetuity?
The decision to leave the EU is the right one, centralised power, centralised decision making, doesn`t work. Ever. Not without trampling over the interests/ambitions/hopes and dreams of significant minorities. The ambitions of the EU are to further centralise. They are heading the wrong way. I thought it was quite revealing to see armoured vehicles, not bearing the French flag, but the European flag, on the streets of Paris this weekend. Not sure what these yellow vests are after anyway. Poor? "Let them eat cake"........... as Macron would say.
And what's your preferred solution to the 'Irish Question'?
In terms of leverage, I can think of 39 billion reasons why the EU should listen to our concerns. It's our ball and we have got to go home for our tea....
I make you right that it is likely we will not leave or, now we will leave in name only.
What I have learned is that we can't even leave the EU without the EU having a say in what we can and can't do.
I am disappointed in the behaviour of politicians..... I'm not sure that the EU power brokers can be absolved of any blame in the shambles.
Whether you are a leaver or a remainer, I don't THINK that the UK Parliament wants to see you 'punished'. I'm not sure that the same can be said about the rest of the EU.
;sub
The problem with politics is that most seem to be more concerned with their own status than actually trying to achieve what will be best for the country. Ok, I accept that most MP's do not see leaving as the best for the country but to me, the biggest failure is how weak and disjointed we have been in our approach to at least seeing what could have been and it is now too late.
I didn't want a no deal and I genuinely thought that the EU would have more sense to offer us enough to make any deal palatable to the public and MP's, but between a choice of no deal or the EU retaining control without an end date I would rather face the potential fall out of no deal.
Seeing as we haven't got a time machine to undo any of that, we have to live with that decision. Brexit is dead.
When the UK leaves the EU, that will change. Even though many people on that island (I hesitate to say a majority, because I don't think the numbers are known) would like their daily lives to continue as normal, they won't be able to.
It's like you live and work in a town where your kids go to schools, you have a business with employees, customers and suppliers and suddenly someone puts a border through the middle of it and tells you there are now 2 different countries.
The only thing Farage got right was that the EU was prepping a European Army but even then there is no way that would go ahead, Ireland will Veto it every time. Something the UK has the power to do also.
People overestimate the UKs worth its a country with dwindling resources plowed into Financial services that are becoming less and less relevant as the scams / corruption unravels from big businesses. (see panama papers) in fact the EU can now press on without the UK outside now in slapping a wage cap on the Financial industry something George Osbourne and the UK government made sure never happened to keep London afloat.
For Migration that was never going to change in or out the EU most migration comes from outside the EU into the UK anyway !
UK sovereignty over our own laws ? the current government has been held in contempt and are now purposely blocking a vote, there's no sovereignty anywhere to behold in this current government. If you wanted to change the EU just VETO EVERYTHING you don't like until treaty change. But it doesn't happen because the UK MPs are either more concerned with party politics and their own greed and wealth. Or because MEPs like Farage mouth off about how important fishing is but only ever turned up to 1 out of 42 meetings held by the European parliament over fishing. He never even tried.
13k people live across the "fence" in La Linea de Concepcion and work in Gib, about 60% of those are Spanish and 20% are British. When the Spanish enforced border controls back in 2013 it took up to seven hours to get through.
I think another vote would certainly be the most democratic thing to do, if it’s the will of the people and what’s best for the country surely it would just be the same result?
Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear......even if it is remain.
It my experience the biggest grumbles were about the bend of a banana, or whatever sensationalist drivel some of our finest newspapers printed from time to time. I didn't know anyone (still don't) who had a reasoned, political or economical argument for leaving.
The irony for me re Corbyn is that his main supporters seem to be the young and a lot of London who are all reported to be mostly pro remain, yet it is labours old heartlands who are meant to be more pro leave but are not so pro Corbyn...
The arguments for remaining, and against leaving, as well as the (strong) counter-arguments to the reasons for leaving, weren't made well enough last time round, imo
And tbh I don't think they've been made any better since. Plus the narrative of 'nasty EU bossing us around, we'll show them, take that you big bully, na na na na na' seems to have taken hold. This will harden (has hardened) attitudes amongst leavers and converted some former-remainers who have been swayed by this childish (in my view) narrative.
I thought it was telling that the Chancellor acknowledged that under all leave scenarios the UK would be worse off economically, and be less prosperous (compared to staying in). But that some leavers just don't care about this - because they have other priorities (ie immigration/borders and sovereignty). I find this depressing (basically, one whole set of considerations is just ignored) and compelling - it's the reason the referendum turned out as it did, and I don't see any evidence that people have changed their views.
I brought up austerity because imo many of the worries and dissatisfactions which underpinned the remain arguments could be laid at the door of austerity policies (or 'domestic policies' if you prefer) but were falsely (again imo) blamed on the EU.