Brexit

imagelost

We should just leave and trade with 75% rest of the world , which the eu 25% are try to stop us doing, on the Ireland’ thing the eu are sticking up for one it’s members, and the uk sticking up for its members,

MrsGrey

Yes. But what do you suggest the UK do about the border in Ireland?

Once the UK leaves, with no deal, you have a border between the EU countries and the UK across the island of Ireland. There will have to be passport checks, border and customs inspections, etc.

Different customs rules, regulations, VAT rates and standards will apply in Northern Ireland and the Republic , so the different rules would have to be enforced.

One solution might be just to trade with the rest of the world, and stop all trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Is that what you think should happen?

Cuz1

I’m not sure what we should do but the vote was to leave so I believe that’s what should happen

claretandbluesky

The problem is no one has any real plan for leaving that doesn't make the country weaker with regard influence and poorer economically, and so quite rightly parliament is finding it hard to allow any of those things to happen as they are there to work in the national interest.

I have never found anyone able to make an argument about how we become better off through Brexit and the best anyone tries is sending Liam Fox to do wonderful trade deals that are just waiting to be offered. What this negotiation with the EU should have taught is that when you have no power or leverage in the negotiation you come out badly, and so all of Liam Fox's brilliant trade deals will of course follow the same pattern, what was so attractive to many companies was using us as the gateway to the EU. We used to be arguably the second most powerful nation in the EU, whilst now Theresa May is dancing her silly dance and gurning everywhere like a beggar whenever she meets them, knowing full well we need appeal to the EU to be saved from ourselves.

Since the beginning I have always thought it would either not happen or in name only and I still feel this to be the case. The lesson I hope is learned after the damage is repaired is that never again will politicians play such stupid party political games with democracy and politics.

BubblesNeverDies

The fundamental flaw with the referendum was that there were no numerical parameters set for such a momentous, nation-changing event.
To allow a simple majority to decide the result was negligent in the extreme; imagine if the result had been 50.1% to 49.9%, in favour of leave.
There should have been a minimum limit of at least 20% to effect a change in the status quo, i.e. 60% to 40%.
The minimum limit would have also ensured that the result was not unduly affected by readers of the rabid headlines of the Daily Fail, Express, Sun etc.

There really does need to be a Peoples' Vote now that the reality of Brexit is beginning to appear.
Of course, there will still be the die-hard Fail, Express, Sun readers who will not change their minds, but, along with the demographic change since the referendum (more young people reaching voting age), I'm fairly certain (and this was backed up by recent polls) that the vote would be to remain.

Barney

The issue is that the whole of Parliament should get behind what the people voted for; if not what is the point of a democracy. Lets just walk away from the EU and get on with our lives. I voted stay but totally support leaving as that is what the majority want.

ASLEFshrugged

imagelost said:

We should just leave and trade with 75% rest of the world , which the eu 25% are try to stop us doing, on the Ireland’ thing the eu are sticking up for one it’s members, and the uk sticking up for its members,

We already trade with the 75% rest of the world, roughly half our imports and exports are from outside the EU.

On the Ireland thing the Good Friday Agreement says that the economic regulations have to be the same on both sides of the border so the choices are either withdraw from the GFA and put up border controls between the two Irelands or we treat Northern Ireland as separate from the rest of the UK.

The GFA isn't a piece of UK legislation we can simply repeal through parliament, its a treaty signed between the UK and Irish governments, generally breaking international treaties isn't regarded as a good thing.

grey_til_I_dye

More than 63% of voters in the 2015 election did not want a Conservative government, or its pledge for a referendum.

The electoral system in the UK is deeply unrepresentative.

Let's not pretend that suggesting, or delivering, a second referendum, now that the consequences of withdrawal fro the EU are clear, is somehow undemocratic.

epsom_bubbles

The problem is always going to be there. Half the voters wanted out and half wanted in (give or take 2%) There will never be a solution, however it is dressed up, that will please at least half of the country. It’s a no win situation.

grey_til_I_dye

epsom

That's probably true.

However, I'd have more faith in a second vote, where people are given a choice based on known outcomes, compared to the first vote which was based on speculation and outright lies, and which involved the breaking of electoral rules.

TheMadcapLaughs

"now that the consequences of withdrawal from the EU are clear"

I`m sorry, but am I missing something?

There are no definite, definitive, concrete outcomes. No-one knows what will happen.

"we will be left weaker.......and poorer economically"

Quite possibly, but for how long, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, in perpetuity?

The decision to leave the EU is the right one, centralised power, centralised decision making, doesn`t work. Ever. Not without trampling over the interests/ambitions/hopes and dreams of significant minorities. The ambitions of the EU are to further centralise. They are heading the wrong way. I thought it was quite revealing to see armoured vehicles, not bearing the French flag, but the European flag, on the streets of Paris this weekend. Not sure what these yellow vests are after anyway. Poor? "Let them eat cake"........... as Macron would say.

MrsGrey

So, for you, is it Deal or No Deal?

And what's your preferred solution to the 'Irish Question'?

Colchester_Iron

claretandbluesky said:

I have never found anyone able to make an argument about how we become better off through Brexit.............

... What this negotiation with the EU should have taught is that when you have no power or leverage in the negotiation you come out badly....

Since the beginning I have always thought it would either not happen or in name only and I still feel this to be the case. The lesson I hope is learned after the damage is repaired is that never again will politicians play such stupid party political games with democracy and politics.

Presumably, by better off, you mean increased GDP? I voted leave and, I did not allow trade relations with the EU to affect my vote.

In terms of leverage, I can think of 39 billion reasons why the EU should listen to our concerns. It's our ball and we have got to go home for our tea....

I make you right that it is likely we will not leave or, now we will leave in name only.
What I have learned is that we can't even leave the EU without the EU having a say in what we can and can't do.

I am disappointed in the behaviour of politicians..... I'm not sure that the EU power brokers can be absolved of any blame in the shambles.
Whether you are a leaver or a remainer, I don't THINK that the UK Parliament wants to see you 'punished'. I'm not sure that the same can be said about the rest of the EU.


;sub

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G. Some sort of deal would be preferable. No deal looks like it could be a shambles. But I`m no expert. Haven`t got a clue what the answer to the "Irish question" is. A united Ireland I guess? The fact that there are problems and difficulties leaving the EU doesn`t alter my opinion of the EU. I oppose the EU on a matter of principle. I`m sure the men (and women) in grey will find the answers. Eventually.

IronHerb

Or Ireland leaves the EU too so border issue disappears. ;biggrin

Tomw85

grey_til_I_dye said:

epsom

That's probably true.

However, I'd have more faith in a second vote, where people are given a choice based on known outcomes, compared to the first vote which was based on speculation and outright lies, and which involved the breaking of electoral rules.

I would fully agree with this if remain hadn't been working hard over the last two years to frustrate and try and overturn the initial vote. Upon seeing how close the result was the government should have said that they will see what the best deal we can get is (as a united front) and then review if that deal is good enough for us to want to follow through on the initial vote.

The problem with politics is that most seem to be more concerned with their own status than actually trying to achieve what will be best for the country. Ok, I accept that most MP's do not see leaving as the best for the country but to me, the biggest failure is how weak and disjointed we have been in our approach to at least seeing what could have been and it is now too late.

I didn't want a no deal and I genuinely thought that the EU would have more sense to offer us enough to make any deal palatable to the public and MP's, but between a choice of no deal or the EU retaining control without an end date I would rather face the potential fall out of no deal.

ASLEFshrugged

Madcap - as if the DUP are going to agree to a united Ireland!

PrestonHammer

The Irish question should have been sorted in 1922 when the 6 counties should have joined the other 26 in becoming the Irish Free State. The blame lies at the door of King James 1st of England for moving English and Scottish Protestants into Northern Ireland.

Seeing as we haven't got a time machine to undo any of that, we have to live with that decision. Brexit is dead.

ASLEFshrugged

Tomw85 said:

I genuinely thought that the EU would have more sense to offer us enough to make any deal palatable to the public and MP's

The EU could only offer as much as was palatable to the governments of the 27 countries who were staying in the EU as they all had to approve the deal, whether it was palatable to the UK was secondary.

MrsGrey

For all practical purposes, at the moment, the island of Ireland is one country. The border is a border in name only.

When the UK leaves the EU, that will change. Even though many people on that island (I hesitate to say a majority, because I don't think the numbers are known) would like their daily lives to continue as normal, they won't be able to.

It's like you live and work in a town where your kids go to schools, you have a business with employees, customers and suppliers and suddenly someone puts a border through the middle of it and tells you there are now 2 different countries.

Yeoldhammer

I don't understand why people thought the EU would suddenly curtail and bow down to the UK or would ever think the UK is such an important factor.

The only thing Farage got right was that the EU was prepping a European Army but even then there is no way that would go ahead, Ireland will Veto it every time. Something the UK has the power to do also.

People overestimate the UKs worth its a country with dwindling resources plowed into Financial services that are becoming less and less relevant as the scams / corruption unravels from big businesses. (see panama papers) in fact the EU can now press on without the UK outside now in slapping a wage cap on the Financial industry something George Osbourne and the UK government made sure never happened to keep London afloat.

For Migration that was never going to change in or out the EU most migration comes from outside the EU into the UK anyway !
UK sovereignty over our own laws ? the current government has been held in contempt and are now purposely blocking a vote, there's no sovereignty anywhere to behold in this current government. If you wanted to change the EU just VETO EVERYTHING you don't like until treaty change. But it doesn't happen because the UK MPs are either more concerned with party politics and their own greed and wealth. Or because MEPs like Farage mouth off about how important fishing is but only ever turned up to 1 out of 42 meetings held by the European parliament over fishing. He never even tried.

ASLEFshrugged

Then there's Gibraltar.

13k people live across the "fence" in La Linea de Concepcion and work in Gib, about 60% of those are Spanish and 20% are British. When the Spanish enforced border controls back in 2013 it took up to seven hours to get through.

Clactonite

Maybe it’s just my ignorance but I never heard anyone complain about the EU before the referendum was called. I don’t know how certain people made it seem we were somehow like EU prisoners when we are/were the EU and pretty big players in it.
I think another vote would certainly be the most democratic thing to do, if it’s the will of the people and what’s best for the country surely it would just be the same result?

Colchester_Iron

For the record, as a leaver, I would welcome a 'people's vote' and would be happy to abide by the result.

Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear......even if it is remain.

ASLEFshrugged

Clacton - Farage and UKIP have been complaining about the EU for 25 years.

MrsGrey

But few took any notice of them, until the Tory govt imposed austerity, which created the fertile ground in which their seeds could grow.

OldCastleSwift

Clactonite said:

Maybe it’s just my ignorance but I never heard anyone complain about the EU before the referendum was called. I don’t know how certain people made it seem we were somehow like EU prisoners when we are/were the EU and pretty big players in it.
I think another vote would certainly be the most democratic thing to do, if it’s the will of the people and what’s best for the country surely it would just be the same result?

Clactonite ;ok

It my experience the biggest grumbles were about the bend of a banana, or whatever sensationalist drivel some of our finest newspapers printed from time to time. I didn't know anyone (still don't) who had a reasoned, political or economical argument for leaving.

Tomw85

MrsGrey said:

But few took any notice of them, until the Tory govt imposed austerity, which created the fertile ground in which their seeds could grow.

For me, the issue of Brexit transcends party politics and too many people are quick to bring up old battle lines between our national parties. I could counter and say that austerity was required due to labours mishandling of the economy during the boom but how does that help us resolve this issue. Also as has been touched on before labour currently have a party leader who is for Brexit and as such the opposition party is very divided which is why the tories have somehow managed to carry on despite their many failings.

The irony for me re Corbyn is that his main supporters seem to be the young and a lot of London who are all reported to be mostly pro remain, yet it is labours old heartlands who are meant to be more pro leave but are not so pro Corbyn...

MrsGrey

I believe if there's anther vote, the result will be the same. (Sadly)

The arguments for remaining, and against leaving, as well as the (strong) counter-arguments to the reasons for leaving, weren't made well enough last time round, imo

And tbh I don't think they've been made any better since. Plus the narrative of 'nasty EU bossing us around, we'll show them, take that you big bully, na na na na na' seems to have taken hold. This will harden (has hardened) attitudes amongst leavers and converted some former-remainers who have been swayed by this childish (in my view) narrative.

I thought it was telling that the Chancellor acknowledged that under all leave scenarios the UK would be worse off economically, and be less prosperous (compared to staying in). But that some leavers just don't care about this - because they have other priorities (ie immigration/borders and sovereignty). I find this depressing (basically, one whole set of considerations is just ignored) and compelling - it's the reason the referendum turned out as it did, and I don't see any evidence that people have changed their views.

MrsGrey

Tomw85 said:

For me, the issue of Brexit transcends party politics and too many people are quick to bring up old battle lines between our national parties. I could counter and say that austerity was required due to labours mishandling of the economy during the boom but how does that help us resolve this issue.

My point wasn't to draw a division along party lines, Tom. The arguments of whether or not the austerity policies were needed/applied fairly etc isn't relevant to the point I was trying (obv not very well) to make.

I brought up austerity because imo many of the worries and dissatisfactions which underpinned the remain arguments could be laid at the door of austerity policies (or 'domestic policies' if you prefer) but were falsely (again imo) blamed on the EU.