Watford vs West Ham United - 19.11.17 - Match Thread

Cuz1

I watched that today and was impressed, didn’t think we were that poor but we certainly are

thornburyiron

What we should be afraid of is the ridicule we will get if we are relegated, a distinct possibility, and the blades are promoted, again a distinct possibility.
The media and fans of other clubs will never let us forget it.

chicagohammer

The result was not what we needed but in fairness it could easily have been very different, however the performance itself was pretty poor and uninspiring.

During five or six minutes prior to their second goal, we had at least three good opportunities to relieve the pressure and regain some control of the game but we totally failed to do that.

Even right at the end - just two down, against Watford, in what is an important game in front of a new manager, eight minutes of extra time!!! I was looking for some extra effort or lift, and it was simply not in evidence.

We seemed to be in control and working to a plan when Watford had the ball, but we seemed to have no idea what to do with it whenever we had possession.

I actually thought that Arnie had a decent game until he went off with what turns out to a problem with his thumb, the way he reacted I thought he had a broken wrist, the big girls blouse, Masuaka has surely shown enough to justify a longer run in the team.

IMO, Hart is not our main problem and Kouyate had an absolute shocker.

It is not the end of the world, we could have, and should have gotten something from the game but I saw nothing today to change my mind that there is trouble at mill.

Ho hum

MrsGrey

welovethehammers said:

As I said it was hard for Cress as he had no cover on left midfield..

There was one moment where shortly after a Watford attack/pouring forward, and play had stopped/paused, Cresswell was standing in acres of space with his arms stretched wide in a 'flipping heck, guys, is anybody going to make any effort to help me defend down this side, or I am I doing it all on my own?' gesture.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

At what point does Cresswell take initiate and actually go up to one of the guys and tell them to help him

Putting your hands up is standard footballer that's not going to actually create any action let's be honest. He should anyone grab em by the neck and tell them to help

MrsGrey

Fair point. But, I think a player has to earn the right to dig another player out ... otherwise it's just pointing the finger and deflecting the blame. It's not like he was faultless ... so is it riht he has a go at other players for their faults? Not so, imo.

If players are not doing what they've been told to do, and trained for, (in terms of positioning, who they should be marking or whatever) it's the job of the captain, or the manager on the touchline to remind them of what they should be doing.

welovethehammers

Patiently awaiting the Leicester match thread now

Yeoldhammer

Its across the whole team though. There is zero defending from the front and zero work rate to get back and helping your team mates out.

This isn't a team and i honestly reckon Moyes will be doing Grant hand waving gestures by Xmas.

NEoldiron

This, by welovethehammers

"We need a tall athletic midfielder who is hard to get past but also has the legs to cover a lot of ground and quickly (this should in theory be Kouyate). Noble is the complete opposite of this. Their player Doucore is exactly what we are missing and need" ;ok

Where is the next Scott Parker? Is he still playing? ;biggrin
Our midfield is like watching Subbuteo; they just pass it across and out to the wings, or backwards. There's no one willing or capable/confident enough on the ball to run through midfield with it.

Lukerz

We ran 10km more in that game than our season average.

As I said, it wasn’t great but it isn’t a quick fix. It’s going to take a month or so to get a basic level of intensity and understanding.

This mob have been underperforming for a year now. It’s not going to change in 12 days.

Watford are a tidy side. No excuses for how we played but we could have had an easier game. They are fit, technical (mainly due to their foreign imports) and confident. We are the complete opposite.

Having said that, we were more aggressive in some areas, had 4 golden chances to score and both goals had elements of misfortune. The first was a bit scrappy and an unlucky deflection fell into Hughes’ path and the second was really handball. Thems the breaks when you’re down. Arnautovic was better today too.

Had Kouyate or Arnie knocked in one of the three chances, 1-1 and it’s a different kettle of fish. As it was the second killed us off. That’s what happens when confidence is brittle.

Moyes may or may not be a disaster. But it’s not fair to draw conclusions on that game. The players need longer than that. However there is no doubt that Hart, Cresswell, Kouyate, Obiang, Lanzini and Carroll in particular are not producing anything close to their best at the minute.

Hopefully we’ll see a bit better on Friday. Be interesting to see if we’ll be a bit more authoritative at home under him.

Hammerex

thornburyiron said:

What we should be afraid of is the ridicule we will get if we are relegated, a distinct possibility, and the blades are promoted, again a distinct possibility.
The media and fans of other clubs will never let us forget it.

Looking on the bright sideThorn, if that happens, at least we won't have to play
against them.

TwistandShout

Another gutless display.
The passing was a shambles.

'You're not fit to wear the shirt' sing the away fans. Spot on. The lack of effort is disgusting

IronHerb

That was aimed at Sakho imo.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I thought we were okay.

We were closer to the ball, faster across the pitch, and tougher in challenges.

Gomes made two great saves, we had one cleared off the line and Kouyate missed two really good chances.

Meanwhile Watford could have been called up for a foul in the build-up to the first goal (which also involved a fluffed shot dropping directly into the step of Hughes 8 yards from goal), and possibly a handball by Hughes in the build-up to their second.

We would have scored 3 or 4 and they could have scored 0 and the game would have looked exactly the same as it did.

All our great chances missed and their good chances went in. That’s just the way their season is going and the way ours is.

I don’t think they were bombarding our goal or playing us out of the universe. They’re just feeling good and we’re feeling dejected, which is why maybe the fans in the away end should think about generating some positivity instead of worrying about themselves.

Lukerz

Siding with Jorderz on this one. It’s easy to react emotionally and badly after the game.

The reality is it’s difficult to judge because the side is lacking confidence and fitness. I don’t think the players aren’t trying, but what they are doing isn’t good enough. We were blowing after an hour, hence the final 30 no show.

First goals set the tone. We actually had a decent first 10 mins where we zipped it around and looked up for it; we were flying into challenges.

But the ball falls kindly to Hughes and we’re a bit slow to react and anticipate and there you go. 1-0 down and gameplan out the window. Confidence takes another hit. We have 3 clear chances, better than anything Watford had, we miss all three and then Reid heads it in the one place he really couldn’t, the ref misses a handball and then Hart fumbles another shot under his hand. Game over more or less.

We have got used to being losers. The defence is used to kicking the ball back to KO again, the strikers are used to missing chances and the midfield is used to being walked through. The mentality has to change.

NEoldiron

Do they sit down with the coaches after a game and watch a recording of it so they can analyse what they're doing wrong and what needs to change. ;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

It’s all very well saying we did xyz better and it’s early days but the fact is that as well as not playing particularly well, we lost. There is no time at all to be lost. Leicester with their pace will be licking their lips at facing us, and (Payet excepted) we typically know what we are going to get at Goodison. Then it’s the 3 games against the far better sides. We could end up with zero or 1 point from that lot. Then we are gone IMO. Be pointless aiming for the likes of carvalho etc (not that they will come). January will be about clearing out the overpaid underperformers - it doesn’t matter who we play, right now I expect us to lose.

jay_in_cpt

While the chances we created should have resulted in a goal or goals, IMHO we were outplayed.
The lead up to their 2nd goal it seemed like we could not get a touch for ages..
I'm not blaming Moyes for this, as only time will tell & to judge him after 1 game would be very wrong.
But the way we played so deep was sad to see...
I agree there were a few positives, but overall another very disappointing showing and Moyes certainly didn't get the result or desired performance , he even said similar ...
Our midfield & RB position for me are the most worrying areas for me
But hey ho, we go again Friday...
Gonna have to see a major improvement IMO as Leicester's speed going forward is going be well difficult for us to contain...

Barney

Whilst Moyes would not have been my first choice, i do think we need to give him some slack to get his methods across to the team and to sort out the shape of the first 11. my big fear is that he will not get full backing in January and that will mean we are fighting relegation all season. there were some positives yesterday and the result could have been different but sadly some of the team are just not up to it. for me Caroll has to go, Noble on the bench and we need a young CB or two. understand the vitiol towards the Board but we really need to get behind Moyes and the team.

Lukerz

I get that but being outplayed was always likely and no surprise. We’re missing 5/6 first team regulars, we’re in the bottom three, away from home and just not very good. Watford weren’t missing players, sitting in 8th, at home and are quite decent. You can’t expect instant success. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, some managers experience an immediate win. But we aren’t that good and are woefully short on confidence. We weren’t going to just turn up and knock the ball around and win the game. To start with we need to show some desire, work ethic and game management. That side had loads of PL experience in it, especially the back five. But we are also an ageing side.

Lukerz

And the things is you can watch the players knock the ball around as much as you want on Mon-Fri, but Moyes will have learnt far more watching us yesterday, and will hopefully target those areas this week prior to Leicester. But our record against them is pretty awful.

TheMadcapLaughs

We need to play two up front, and despite being a big Carroll fan, neither should be Big Andy. Any two from Hernandez, Sakho, Ayew, Martinez or Antonio. We need pace up top and a little bit of skill, otherwise the ball just comes straight back at us. I would love to see us play in a similar way to how we played when we had Sakho and Valencia running at defences, running the channels and pulling defences out of shape. The best period for us over the last five years, and that includes the Payet era (IMO). We haven`t got the technical ability to play possession football and the tippy tappy stuff. Either a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2, I don`t care. Or perhaps we should re-visit Allerdici`s famous "diamond" formation.
I`m with Luke and Jorderz, I don`t think we were as bad as some make out yesterday. Sure Watford played the better football (shudders and shakes head), but we created the better chances. I would love us to go something like:

............................Adrian............................
.................Rice......Reid......Ogbonna..........
Byram..............Noble....Obiang.........Masuaku
...........................Lanzini..................................
.....................Sakho.........Ayew........................

I know that Moyes generally plays four at the back, but we do seem a little more fluid playing a back 3/5.

In the words of another poster..................

Ho Hum.

;scarf

Cuz1

So Moyes tells sky sports most people would expect that yesterday cus that’s the way it’s been recently, real confidence boost for the team similar to his statement after two games with Sunderland, also in the report which I thought was a good one from the reporter it’s his job to change it not to oversee a continuation

SuzanneClaret

Would you preferred that he lied Cuz?

Cuz1

I’d have preferred it to come across more positive, the point I was making was is admission previously by saying Sunderland were in a relagation fight after two games, it was obvious we struggling for whatever reasons this season were I’d just expect more of I will get them out of this, more positivity to get the fans inside,when big Sam said what is the West Ham way look at the reaction to that on here

Kuchinghammer

How we managed to create 4 clear chances is a mystery. But we did, which means we should create more as the team improves. But defensively... 4 at the back from this squad doesn't work, Kouyate was meant to be the box-to-box man and had a miserable game. But but, so did Masuaku the other day (and Arnie all season) and they did much better. My main worry is that Moyes doesn't have time to mould this squad into his tactics, he needs to use the tactics that suit the players, and introduce young legs for energy & enthusiasm.

MrsGrey

cuz, I think you are latching on to one statement in what he said and ignoring the rest of it. What about...

-hopefully I’ll get the chance to work with [all] the players over the coming weeks and it will make a difference.”

- I thought we started the second half playing better than we did at times in the first half. We have things to work on and, hopefully, things to improve on.

- “We have to try to win games and get results and pick them up as we go along and I believe we will do

Cuz1

MrsGrey/ suze I stand corrected on that post now I didn’t see those but that sounds positive enough, to be fair on my part I have posted I would give him a chance as a hammer to turn things round, he doesn’t inspire me but I wish him all the best because if he does a good job we stay up

MrsGrey

;ok

Of course, often the papers skew the reporting to give it a particular angle.

Vorselaarhammer

Uninspiring first game for Moyes, nothing to get excited about or to think we are moving forward.

Running around a lot without a purpose is no better than not running around a lot...