Watford vs West Ham United - 19.11.17 - Match Thread

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Comments

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Welove, my comms team said that he told Moyes to let him go back on.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Because the pitch side commentator said he heard him say it.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Hamstew said:

    Another Monday at work of constant abuse. Might pull a sickie

    You may find that the other fans won't bother to abuse you, since the West ham fans have pretty much cornered the market in abusing their own club and players.

    That imo is what is embarrassing.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Moyes pretty honest in his post match interview. Not a happy bunny.
  • HamstewHamstew
    MrsGrey said:

    Hamstew said:

    Another Monday at work of constant abuse. Might pull a sickie

    You may find that the other fans won't bother to abuse you, since the West ham fans have pretty much cornered the market in abusing their own club and players.

    That imo is what is embarrassing.
    But should I still pull a sickie?
  • jay_in_cptjay_in_cpt
    My honest view..
    We were outplayed and IMO the tactics , if they were told to play so deep was poor.
    The players on the pitch in general today must be some of the slowest around..
    We gave the ball away so much, I don't know what to say..
    AC as much as he tries he also needs the right service and a bit of help up there.
    But have to take into account injury issues and a couple of things that were ok, Arnie IMO had his best game and could have grabbed a assist and goal...
    Sad to say think Noble is holding us back... But Obiang & Cheikh are both below par this season, so it's tricky IMO ....
    While I commend Reid for his wanting to play, perhaps Rice could have started..
    Our 4 at the back couldn't cope and full backs struggled with little help , apart from Arnie IMO ..
    Cresswell looks a shadow of the player he was...
    That's my take, gonna be a hard long season, Mr Moyes, Good Luck ..
  • PrestonHammerPrestonHammer
    Distract them with clowns.
  • HamstewHamstew
    PrestonHammer said:

    Distract them with clowns.

    Should I?
  • EXETERHAMMEREXETERHAMMER
    Well that went well.
    It seems clear that we just do not have the players to play a back 4. A lack of pace and proper defensive central midfielder was obvious.
    5 at the back with Masuaku and Zabaleta wide will give us a chance. Sakho must start ahead of Carroll too.
  • BarneyBarney
    I do hope the owners back Moyes in the transfer window or we are for the drop. a bit more energy today and we did have some good chances but I think Noble has had his time, arnie improved and I think Carolls mind is elsewhere
  • welovethehammerswelovethehammers
    Jay - just my take on some of the things you said (agree with most of it) ... :
    jay_in_cpt said:

    The players on the pitch in general today must be some of the slowest around..

    Agreed. We seemed to be chasing shadows in midfield with Obiang Kouyate and Noble. The 3 covered a lot of ground chasing the ball but at the same time very rarely won the ball. The Watford players knocked it about with pace and made them run and stretched them. Noble looked knackered by the end of it and Obiang looked pretty tired too and I'm not surprised as they made those 3 run. Playing Lanzini also meant that there was a large space on the left in front of Cresswell and Lanzini couldn't play "in the whole" as well as covering this left side which resulted in Noble trying to cover a central position as well as the left of midfield position. It was nice when Masuaku came on for many reasons.... #1 he covered that left side which previously was getting "half covered" by Noble and "half covered" by Lanzini #2 Masuaku offered us pace, width, could keep possession and didn't look scared (unlike the rest of our 3 midfielders).
    jay_in_cpt said:

    We gave the ball away so much, I don't know what to say..

    I agree. I think that was due to a mixture of tiredness and lack of confidence. More the latter to be honest. Playing on the break reduces the need to pass the ball about and build it up. If you can't keep the ball well it is mathematically easier to try score with a few passes on the counter attack than a slow gradual build up.
    jay_in_cpt said:

    AC as much as he tries he also needs the right service and a bit of help up there.

    I sort of agree. AC has never been good when he comes deep or when he has his back to goal. This is becausr he is slow, not agile and defenders can read him and pick the ball of him. He is best with his face to goal so he can attack headers more aggressively. If he plays we need the right sort of service to him. When Masuaku came on he got one or two balls into the box. This is ideal for Carroll but he has came off by then. So if Carroll plays we need to play to his strengths. Get it out wide and let Carroll attack it. Allardyce knew how to do this. Very simple but effective. That's why imo we saw the best of Cresswell as it was simple.... good cross in, let AC attack it and do this over and over.
    jay_in_cpt said:

    Sad to say think Noble is holding us back... But Obiang & Cheikh are both below par this season, so it's tricky IMO ....

    Agreed. None of our central midfielders are doing well and that's our main weakness summed up. Out of all our problems that is the biggest one for me. It means we have no spine and teams can walk past us. We need a tall athletic midfielder who is hard to get past but also has the legs to cover a lot of ground and quickly (this should in theory be Kouyate). Noble is the complete opposite of this. Their player Doucore is exactly what we are missing and need.
    jay_in_cpt said:

    While I commend Reid for his wanting to play, perhaps Rice could have started..
    Our 4 at the back couldn't cope and full backs struggled with little help , apart from Arnie IMO ..

    I prefer Rice in midfield to defence and imo he should've played there instead of one of our midfielders. I guess it's easier to say that now than before the game, but even so Moyes should've brought on Rice either at half time or very early into the second half. Purely because our midfielders were tiring and we needed fresh legs. Probably for Noble because all of our midfielders were chasing shadows but particularly him imo.
    jay_in_cpt said:

    Cresswell looks a shadow of the player he was...
    That's my take, gonna be a hard long season, Mr Moyes, Good Luck ..

    As I said it was hard for Cress as he had no cover on left midfield. Lanzini was sort of covering this area but sort of playing as the central attacking midfielder too. Noble was sort of covering this area but also sort of covering a more central position. However when Masuaku came on we had someone on the left midfield to cover this space. He also attacked well and "attack is the best form of defence" seemed to be true when he came on. I feel those 2 should be playing on the left together regularly. It'll get the best out of both of them. If Masuaku does play here we need someone in the middle to get on the end of his crosses as well as Cresswell's crosses though. As I said previously Cress looked great under Allardyce as his game plan was simple - get Cress time on the ball and in a position to pick out Carroll; ideally giving AC a run at his defender and ensuring he is facing the goal. Use Masuaku to power up that touch line and hopefully simply by attacking on the left it'll help Cress. Use Masuaku similarly to how Antonio plays on the right wing (i.e. Charge up there powerfully and try get the team as far up the pitch as possible).
  • whupathmanwhupathman
    Not surprised at the result, we were poor and lack motivation, I still think Moyes is the wrong man at the wrong time but hope I am wrong. Today was woeful.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    I watched that today and was impressed, didn’t think we were that poor but we certainly are
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    What we should be afraid of is the ridicule we will get if we are relegated, a distinct possibility, and the blades are promoted, again a distinct possibility.
    The media and fans of other clubs will never let us forget it.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    edited November 2017
    The result was not what we needed but in fairness it could easily have been very different, however the performance itself was pretty poor and uninspiring.

    During five or six minutes prior to their second goal, we had at least three good opportunities to relieve the pressure and regain some control of the game but we totally failed to do that.

    Even right at the end - just two down, against Watford, in what is an important game in front of a new manager, eight minutes of extra time!!! I was looking for some extra effort or lift, and it was simply not in evidence.

    We seemed to be in control and working to a plan when Watford had the ball, but we seemed to have no idea what to do with it whenever we had possession.

    I actually thought that Arnie had a decent game until he went off with what turns out to a problem with his thumb, the way he reacted I thought he had a broken wrist, the big girls blouse, Masuaka has surely shown enough to justify a longer run in the team.

    IMO, Hart is not our main problem and Kouyate had an absolute shocker.

    It is not the end of the world, we could have, and should have gotten something from the game but I saw nothing today to change my mind that there is trouble at mill.

    Ho hum
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited November 2017
    welovethehammers said:


    As I said it was hard for Cress as he had no cover on left midfield..

    There was one moment where shortly after a Watford attack/pouring forward, and play had stopped/paused, Cresswell was standing in acres of space with his arms stretched wide in a 'flipping heck, guys, is anybody going to make any effort to help me defend down this side, or I am I doing it all on my own?' gesture.
  • WHU_Champo_league_in_7_yearsWHU_Champo_league_in_7_years
    At what point does Cresswell take initiate and actually go up to one of the guys and tell them to help him

    Putting your hands up is standard footballer that's not going to actually create any action let's be honest. He should anyone grab em by the neck and tell them to help
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Fair point. But, I think a player has to earn the right to dig another player out ... otherwise it's just pointing the finger and deflecting the blame. It's not like he was faultless ... so is it riht he has a go at other players for their faults? Not so, imo.

    If players are not doing what they've been told to do, and trained for, (in terms of positioning, who they should be marking or whatever) it's the job of the captain, or the manager on the touchline to remind them of what they should be doing.
  • welovethehammerswelovethehammers
    Patiently awaiting the Leicester match thread now
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    Its across the whole team though. There is zero defending from the front and zero work rate to get back and helping your team mates out.

    This isn't a team and i honestly reckon Moyes will be doing Grant hand waving gestures by Xmas.
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    This, by welovethehammers

    "We need a tall athletic midfielder who is hard to get past but also has the legs to cover a lot of ground and quickly (this should in theory be Kouyate). Noble is the complete opposite of this. Their player Doucore is exactly what we are missing and need" ;ok

    Where is the next Scott Parker? Is he still playing? ;biggrin
    Our midfield is like watching Subbuteo; they just pass it across and out to the wings, or backwards. There's no one willing or capable/confident enough on the ball to run through midfield with it.

  • LukerzLukerz
    edited November 2017
    We ran 10km more in that game than our season average.

    As I said, it wasn’t great but it isn’t a quick fix. It’s going to take a month or so to get a basic level of intensity and understanding.

    This mob have been underperforming for a year now. It’s not going to change in 12 days.

    Watford are a tidy side. No excuses for how we played but we could have had an easier game. They are fit, technical (mainly due to their foreign imports) and confident. We are the complete opposite.

    Having said that, we were more aggressive in some areas, had 4 golden chances to score and both goals had elements of misfortune. The first was a bit scrappy and an unlucky deflection fell into Hughes’ path and the second was really handball. Thems the breaks when you’re down. Arnautovic was better today too.

    Had Kouyate or Arnie knocked in one of the three chances, 1-1 and it’s a different kettle of fish. As it was the second killed us off. That’s what happens when confidence is brittle.

    Moyes may or may not be a disaster. But it’s not fair to draw conclusions on that game. The players need longer than that. However there is no doubt that Hart, Cresswell, Kouyate, Obiang, Lanzini and Carroll in particular are not producing anything close to their best at the minute.

    Hopefully we’ll see a bit better on Friday. Be interesting to see if we’ll be a bit more authoritative at home under him.
  • HammerexHammerex
    thornburyiron said:

    What we should be afraid of is the ridicule we will get if we are relegated, a distinct possibility, and the blades are promoted, again a distinct possibility.
    The media and fans of other clubs will never let us forget it.

    Looking on the bright sideThorn, if that happens, at least we won't have to play
    against them.
  • TwistandShoutTwistandShout
    Another gutless display.
    The passing was a shambles.

    'You're not fit to wear the shirt' sing the away fans. Spot on. The lack of effort is disgusting
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    edited November 2017
    That was aimed at Sakho imo.
  • Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_MoyesJorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes
    I thought we were okay.

    We were closer to the ball, faster across the pitch, and tougher in challenges.

    Gomes made two great saves, we had one cleared off the line and Kouyate missed two really good chances.

    Meanwhile Watford could have been called up for a foul in the build-up to the first goal (which also involved a fluffed shot dropping directly into the step of Hughes 8 yards from goal), and possibly a handball by Hughes in the build-up to their second.

    We would have scored 3 or 4 and they could have scored 0 and the game would have looked exactly the same as it did.

    All our great chances missed and their good chances went in. That’s just the way their season is going and the way ours is.

    I don’t think they were bombarding our goal or playing us out of the universe. They’re just feeling good and we’re feeling dejected, which is why maybe the fans in the away end should think about generating some positivity instead of worrying about themselves.
  • LukerzLukerz
    edited November 2017
    Siding with Jorderz on this one. It’s easy to react emotionally and badly after the game.

    The reality is it’s difficult to judge because the side is lacking confidence and fitness. I don’t think the players aren’t trying, but what they are doing isn’t good enough. We were blowing after an hour, hence the final 30 no show.

    First goals set the tone. We actually had a decent first 10 mins where we zipped it around and looked up for it; we were flying into challenges.

    But the ball falls kindly to Hughes and we’re a bit slow to react and anticipate and there you go. 1-0 down and gameplan out the window. Confidence takes another hit. We have 3 clear chances, better than anything Watford had, we miss all three and then Reid heads it in the one place he really couldn’t, the ref misses a handball and then Hart fumbles another shot under his hand. Game over more or less.

    We have got used to being losers. The defence is used to kicking the ball back to KO again, the strikers are used to missing chances and the midfield is used to being walked through. The mentality has to change.
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Do they sit down with the coaches after a game and watch a recording of it so they can analyse what they're doing wrong and what needs to change. ;hmm
  • baracks_a_hammerbaracks_a_hammer
    It’s all very well saying we did xyz better and it’s early days but the fact is that as well as not playing particularly well, we lost. There is no time at all to be lost. Leicester with their pace will be licking their lips at facing us, and (Payet excepted) we typically know what we are going to get at Goodison. Then it’s the 3 games against the far better sides. We could end up with zero or 1 point from that lot. Then we are gone IMO. Be pointless aiming for the likes of carvalho etc (not that they will come). January will be about clearing out the overpaid underperformers - it doesn’t matter who we play, right now I expect us to lose.
  • jay_in_cptjay_in_cpt
    While the chances we created should have resulted in a goal or goals, IMHO we were outplayed.
    The lead up to their 2nd goal it seemed like we could not get a touch for ages..
    I'm not blaming Moyes for this, as only time will tell & to judge him after 1 game would be very wrong.
    But the way we played so deep was sad to see...
    I agree there were a few positives, but overall another very disappointing showing and Moyes certainly didn't get the result or desired performance , he even said similar ...
    Our midfield & RB position for me are the most worrying areas for me
    But hey ho, we go again Friday...
    Gonna have to see a major improvement IMO as Leicester's speed going forward is going be well difficult for us to contain...
This discussion has been closed.