American Election Discussion

alderz

He's already started campaigning for 2020

ASLEFshrugged

Madcap - what is surprising is that surveys suggest that less than 40% of US households have access to a gun even though there are more guns than people.

There are some people out there with a lot of guns at home.....

billybondsbeard

I loved Eddie Izzard's take on the right to bear arms. The Amendment was written at a time when any 'armed militia' would only have had muskets. The gist of his argument was, yes, you can have a gun, but it has to be a musket. Cue a big riff on how long it would take to load and reload etc, would cut gun crime overnight

Well i thought it was funny ( somebody find the clip - I'm at work !) ;ok

OutcastLondoner

Given the amount of work I've had to do on Trump I really sympathise with these guys.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-interpreters-donald-trump-translate-struggle-us-president-white-house-speech-talking-style-a7596986.html

MrsGrey

SuzanneClaret

grey_til_I_dye

I am almost impressed by Trump trying to blame the Democrats for the failure.

'We couldn't get one Democrat.'

Well, really? Can't think why.

And, er, given that the Republicans have a majority in both houses, why would they need one?

thornburyiron

Because some of the republicans wanted an even harder new healthcare and I think they outnumbered the ones who opposed it.

grey_til_I_dye

thorn

Sorry, yes I knew that.

My point was that to blame the Democrats because Republicans can't agree among themselves is ludicrous.

thornburyiron

Absolutely. I don't suppose all the democrats agreed on the healthcare plan among themselves either but they I expect they all agreed to vote against it anyway.

MrsGrey

I imagine a big part of why they voted against it was that it would result in 24m people having no health insurance, over time.

It is mind-boggling, isn't it - we who are used to the NHS, to try to imagine a system where you can simply be too poor to get medical treatment you need. And so you might die, because your illness is treatable but you aren't rich enough to be saved. It's mind-boggling to me, anyway.

grey_til_I_dye

thorn

Well, given that they likely voted for the original healthcare bill, it was always going to be unlikely they would agree to its abolition and replacement with something that did less.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Mrs G - 100%

PrestonHammer

To those who keep voting Tory, this is what OUR NHS will come to if you keep voting for them!

ASLEFshrugged

The Republicans have 237 seats in the House, the Democrats 193, from what I've read there were around 40 Republicans who weren't going to support it because it gave too much health care, the more moderate Republicans wouldn't have supported if it gave less as they're already worried about the mid-term elections in 2018.

The Democrats were never going to vote to abolish Obamacare

thornburyiron

Preston since WW2 there has been 42 years of Tory rule and 30 years of Labour but the NHS is still there. Regardless of who is in power, as years go by the NHS is going to be more in crisis due to increases in population size and the increasing age demographics.
There are already more people over age 65 than under 16

PrestonHammer

The Tories' solution to that is to run into the ground and then sell it off, leaving the low paid rubbish or none at all, hospital care.

MrsGrey

It's only in crisis because they won't fund it properly.

Vorselaarhammer

It was in crisis when labour was in power also.

As far as I can remembers there has never been a time when it wasn't in crisis...

ASLEFshrugged

Vors - it was doing rather well until John Major introduced the "internal market" with The National Health Service and Community Act 1990, Blair did his bit with "patient choice" and the real corker was The Health and Social Care Act 2013 which opened the gates to the private sector.

thornburyiron said:

Regardless of who is in power, as years go by the NHS is going to be more in crisis due to increases in population size and the increasing age demographics.
There are already more people over age 65 than under 16

The aging population is not just a UK phenomena, you'll find the same thing happening across Europe and the rest of the developed world with Japan having the largest proportion of elderly people. Other countries manage to provide adequate levels of health care, as the country with the fifth largest GDP in the world there's no reason we can't cope with our aging population.

The underfunding of the NHS and the advancement of private health care is purely political.

simonc

Obama care simply needs repealing, FYI anyone walking into an emergency room in the USA will receive treatment rich or poor. The issue is who pays the bill, medical insurance in the USA is expensive, but the medical facilities and treatment in the USA are also far superior to those of the UK or Canada.
There is room for a compromise with the Dems but not from a starting point of Obama care (worse care for all).
I do agree that after 7 years it is disgraceful that the Republicans did not have a bill ready that they could agree on. But IMO no bill is better than Obama Care which luckily will fail on its own,

MrsGrey

But that's emergency treatment only. Which is only a fraction of the medical treatment people need.

I would like some evidence that the medical facilities in the US are far better than the UK+Canada (and by what criteria are you judging it)?

And even if they are, that's all very well for those that can access them. I'm not sure it's much consolation to people who (prior to PPACA) couldn't afford treatment. So had to wait until their condition deteriorated so far that they ended up in the emergency room. Where they got good treatment for their emergency then packed off again with no follow-up or rehabilitation. Assuming it wasn't just too late, and they died.

A high standard of treatment is not very impressive if only some people can get it. Check out the OECD rankings prior to Obamacare, and see where the US ranks on things like infant mortality, life-expectancy and other markers of a nation's health.

simonc

I understand health care is a touchy subject but would you not like to get treated when you are diagnosed with a treatable condition, in the USA you can, in the UK & Canada you wait and wait a bit longer. One of my Canadian colleges had to travel to Buffalo monthly for cancer treatments.
Maybe it is the hospitals i have visited but Kettering General does not hold a candle to the hospitals i have had the misfortune of visiting in the USA.

PrestonHammer

I take it you have a good health plan. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the U.S. who have a health plan that is great if you only have a cold and nothing else. God for bid if you have any form of cancer. The problem with Obamacare is that it is run by insurance companies, who do anything to weedle out of paying for anything unless your health plan is bullet proof, unfortunately the average Joe can't afford one of those.

simonc

Preston, the problem with Obamacare is Obamacare it is big government telling us dumb citizens that they know far better than us what is good for us. I would rather keep my money and spend it on things that i value than have someone with no knowledge of my situation dictate where i should spend money that i earn.
May as well leave the front door open and let everyone someone else considers has more need than me take what they want. This is exactly what the government does, they are just sneakier about doing it.

PrestonHammer

I thought the idea of Obamacare was to help everybody have some sort of health plan? Listening to you, it sounds like you really couldn't care less about anybody else and I'm pretty sure you are not alone in that way of thinking. Surely having something like the NHS would benefit all Americans, not just the ones who can afford it.

simonc

Don't get me wrong Preston I think all people should have health care, I just dont think it should be handled by big government, it simply does not work efficiently.
I also do not believe in taxing more to get more money, if the government wants to spend money they should grow the economy accordingly, then more people would have jobs & associated health insurance. Western societies are burdened down with government generated dependents, get these people what they need, "jobs" not tax dollars for handouts.
Many of the uninsured are uninsured because the chose to be & even Obamacare could not get them to sign up, these people are the country's healthy youth who were supposed to take the burden of the costs, if healthcare is a right then why is health insurance not mandatory for anyone earning x? Medicade would cover & support those that slip through the cracks if the majority took responsibility for their own situation. Market forces and competition can provide an affordable solution given the chance.

ASLEFshrugged

Market forces and competition can provide an affordable solution given the chance.

Market forces and competition have been given a chance to find a solution to the USA's health care for the last 240 years.

The reason why every other developed country in the world has come form of government health care is because the free market had failed to provide a solution.

Many of the uninsured are uninsured because the chose to be

Laughed I nearly......

simonc

Laugh all you want, but the books dont balance because the people that Obama needed didnt sign up. As an fyi people were not dying in the street before Obama care & they wont be after, i suggest you read the Brexit thread to see how happy everyone is with government run healthcare in the UK

Yeoldhammer

Hell of a lot better system than American insurance companies.