American Election Discussion

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Mrs G - 100%

PrestonHammer

To those who keep voting Tory, this is what OUR NHS will come to if you keep voting for them!

ASLEFshrugged

The Republicans have 237 seats in the House, the Democrats 193, from what I've read there were around 40 Republicans who weren't going to support it because it gave too much health care, the more moderate Republicans wouldn't have supported if it gave less as they're already worried about the mid-term elections in 2018.

The Democrats were never going to vote to abolish Obamacare

thornburyiron

Preston since WW2 there has been 42 years of Tory rule and 30 years of Labour but the NHS is still there. Regardless of who is in power, as years go by the NHS is going to be more in crisis due to increases in population size and the increasing age demographics.
There are already more people over age 65 than under 16

PrestonHammer

The Tories' solution to that is to run into the ground and then sell it off, leaving the low paid rubbish or none at all, hospital care.

MrsGrey

It's only in crisis because they won't fund it properly.

Vorselaarhammer

It was in crisis when labour was in power also.

As far as I can remembers there has never been a time when it wasn't in crisis...

ASLEFshrugged

Vors - it was doing rather well until John Major introduced the "internal market" with The National Health Service and Community Act 1990, Blair did his bit with "patient choice" and the real corker was The Health and Social Care Act 2013 which opened the gates to the private sector.

thornburyiron said:

Regardless of who is in power, as years go by the NHS is going to be more in crisis due to increases in population size and the increasing age demographics.
There are already more people over age 65 than under 16

The aging population is not just a UK phenomena, you'll find the same thing happening across Europe and the rest of the developed world with Japan having the largest proportion of elderly people. Other countries manage to provide adequate levels of health care, as the country with the fifth largest GDP in the world there's no reason we can't cope with our aging population.

The underfunding of the NHS and the advancement of private health care is purely political.

simonc

Obama care simply needs repealing, FYI anyone walking into an emergency room in the USA will receive treatment rich or poor. The issue is who pays the bill, medical insurance in the USA is expensive, but the medical facilities and treatment in the USA are also far superior to those of the UK or Canada.
There is room for a compromise with the Dems but not from a starting point of Obama care (worse care for all).
I do agree that after 7 years it is disgraceful that the Republicans did not have a bill ready that they could agree on. But IMO no bill is better than Obama Care which luckily will fail on its own,

MrsGrey

But that's emergency treatment only. Which is only a fraction of the medical treatment people need.

I would like some evidence that the medical facilities in the US are far better than the UK+Canada (and by what criteria are you judging it)?

And even if they are, that's all very well for those that can access them. I'm not sure it's much consolation to people who (prior to PPACA) couldn't afford treatment. So had to wait until their condition deteriorated so far that they ended up in the emergency room. Where they got good treatment for their emergency then packed off again with no follow-up or rehabilitation. Assuming it wasn't just too late, and they died.

A high standard of treatment is not very impressive if only some people can get it. Check out the OECD rankings prior to Obamacare, and see where the US ranks on things like infant mortality, life-expectancy and other markers of a nation's health.

simonc

I understand health care is a touchy subject but would you not like to get treated when you are diagnosed with a treatable condition, in the USA you can, in the UK & Canada you wait and wait a bit longer. One of my Canadian colleges had to travel to Buffalo monthly for cancer treatments.
Maybe it is the hospitals i have visited but Kettering General does not hold a candle to the hospitals i have had the misfortune of visiting in the USA.

PrestonHammer

I take it you have a good health plan. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the U.S. who have a health plan that is great if you only have a cold and nothing else. God for bid if you have any form of cancer. The problem with Obamacare is that it is run by insurance companies, who do anything to weedle out of paying for anything unless your health plan is bullet proof, unfortunately the average Joe can't afford one of those.

simonc

Preston, the problem with Obamacare is Obamacare it is big government telling us dumb citizens that they know far better than us what is good for us. I would rather keep my money and spend it on things that i value than have someone with no knowledge of my situation dictate where i should spend money that i earn.
May as well leave the front door open and let everyone someone else considers has more need than me take what they want. This is exactly what the government does, they are just sneakier about doing it.

PrestonHammer

I thought the idea of Obamacare was to help everybody have some sort of health plan? Listening to you, it sounds like you really couldn't care less about anybody else and I'm pretty sure you are not alone in that way of thinking. Surely having something like the NHS would benefit all Americans, not just the ones who can afford it.

simonc

Don't get me wrong Preston I think all people should have health care, I just dont think it should be handled by big government, it simply does not work efficiently.
I also do not believe in taxing more to get more money, if the government wants to spend money they should grow the economy accordingly, then more people would have jobs & associated health insurance. Western societies are burdened down with government generated dependents, get these people what they need, "jobs" not tax dollars for handouts.
Many of the uninsured are uninsured because the chose to be & even Obamacare could not get them to sign up, these people are the country's healthy youth who were supposed to take the burden of the costs, if healthcare is a right then why is health insurance not mandatory for anyone earning x? Medicade would cover & support those that slip through the cracks if the majority took responsibility for their own situation. Market forces and competition can provide an affordable solution given the chance.

ASLEFshrugged

Market forces and competition can provide an affordable solution given the chance.

Market forces and competition have been given a chance to find a solution to the USA's health care for the last 240 years.

The reason why every other developed country in the world has come form of government health care is because the free market had failed to provide a solution.

Many of the uninsured are uninsured because the chose to be

Laughed I nearly......

simonc

Laugh all you want, but the books dont balance because the people that Obama needed didnt sign up. As an fyi people were not dying in the street before Obama care & they wont be after, i suggest you read the Brexit thread to see how happy everyone is with government run healthcare in the UK

Yeoldhammer

Hell of a lot better system than American insurance companies.

MrsGrey

I can't see how you took from the Brexit thread the idea that people in the UK want to get rid of the NHS. I really can't. ;puzzled


I have, though, seen people complaining about the increasing move AWAY from govt-run heathlcare to increasing privatisation.

MrsGrey

simonc said:

As an fyi people were not dying in the street before Obama care & they wont be after,

Does it matter were they died? No.

What matters is that they did.

SuzanneClaret

For a first world country Americas view on health care is appalling.

People have to choose whether to pay their mortgages and utility bills or pay for their cancer drugs (for example). This is, imho, unacceptable.

brookingsirons

Suz ;ok

chicagohammer

many of the plans over here are actually catastrophic plans, they have very high deductibles so the insurance will kick in if you get cancer but essentially you are paying for every in growing toe nail on your own.

The biggest issue over is not the provision of care but the cost of care at delivery, the bill you are landed with for an overnight stay in hospital runs into thousands, the initial bill for having an appendix out can be up to $60,000, even a ride in an ambulance can end up costing you two or three thousand.

The initial bill is huge, if you have insurance it is then heavily discounted and you may be on the hook for a 20% co pay of the discounted rate, if you have no insurance the "bill, or debt" you are landed with is far higher than the bill that is actually sent to the insurance companies for settlement.

I truly do not understand it, surely the cost of applying a plaster cast should be simply X irrespective of what insurance you carry.

The sad part is that the highest cause of bankruptcy amongst the elderly is due to health costs.

PrestonHammer

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free (Unless you don't have health insurance, in which case, get back on the boat)

grey_til_I_dye

Or nip off to Canada...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39410236

Yeoldhammer

Derp Trump

MrsGrey

Russians take a page out of Trump's playbook.

Other politicians in Russia are lining up to condemn the US airstrike, with many politicians claiming the news of the chemical attack was a “fake” in order to provide a pretext for military action.

ASLEFshrugged

Trump is being investigated for links to Putin, there's a gas attack on a Syrian rebel held area, a bombing raid on a Syrian military target in retaliation and Putin condemns Trump.

No Americans hurt, no Russians hurt. Or am I being too cynical?

RT aka PutinTV is reporting that the bombs were normal and they hit a rebel chemical weapons store.

MrsGrey

I've seen that claim debunked, fairly convincingly (to me, anyway).

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Hamish de Bretton Gordon, director of Doctors Under Fire and former commanding officer of the UK Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear (CBRN) Regiment, said this claim was “completely untrue” .... "if you blow up sarin, you destroy it.”

Vorselaarhammer

We know all countries lie but with the Russians you get impression they don't put too much effort into making it a good one....