Academy and Development Squad Developments 2017-18

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Comments

  • But there are other kids in the prem.
  • Saying he is not ready and should not be given a chance because his goals record at his loan club is not great is a bit of kop out IMO. How do we know how much service he had, for example, at his loan club.
  • Does that apply to Samuelsen too, then? ;hmm

    Yeah it does. To me, Samuelsen is very far from being ready. Not being able to make an impact at either Peterborough or Blackburn this season isn't a good sign, IMO.
  • edited May 2017
    baracks, so isn't that an argument for finding out, before saying he should be given a chance. Maybe he's had loads of service...

    #worksbothways
  • Sounds promising: “Declan Rice is an immense captain and an immense leader and he’s going to have a huge future in the game, that I am sure about. He is possibly the best player in this league this year.

    “Every single game the opposition talk about him, scouts talk about him, managers ring about taking him on loan; he’s had an absolutely outstanding season and you can tell how tired he was at the end. He gives everything all of the time, he’s a proper captain and a proper leader.


    Read more at http://www.whufc.com/news/articles/2017/may/16-may/westley-its-been-outstanding-season#xbwyTBE8SEatLsUz.99
  • Hamstew said:

    But there are other kids in the prem.

    And there are even more kids not in the prem
  • I know there are
  • Genuine question. Did Calleri get any game time for the U23’s? I seem to remember him and fletcher playing for them?
  • I don't think it is a cop out at all, tbh. When Jermain Defoe went out on loan to Bournemouth he was 18 and he scored 18 league goals in 29 games. I'm not saying that Martinez should have to have the same record to prove anything, but IMO it shows that there are some players that prove they are ready, and some who still have to prove it.
  • Hamstew said:

    Genuine question. Did Calleri get any game time for the U23’s? I seem to remember him and fletcher playing for them?

    Yep. They've both played some games for them. Think Fletcher scored a couple of times
  • alderz said:

    Does that apply to Samuelsen too, then? ;hmm

    Yeah it does. To me, Samuelsen is very far from being ready. Not being able to make an impact at either Peterborough or Blackburn this season isn't a good sign, IMO.
    Sorry Alderz, my question was in terms of whether he wouldn't be available for Sunday as he's been on loan, not whether he was ready for the first team (my comment appeared later than I had intended it to)
  • Calleri played twice with the U23s, v West Brom 31/10 and v Blackburn 21/11, he crossed for Fletcher to score in the first and crossed for Fletcher to play back for Samuelson's goal in the second (which pretty much sums him up)

    Fletcher played 10 games with the U23s, scored 3
  • OCS ;ok

    Ah ok, in that case, yes I believe so. As far as I can work out from the rules, neither would be available, nor would Burke.
  • edited May 2017
    When does a season long loan end, when your season is finished or the club you loan to season has finished.
  • thorn

    It was unclear in the handbook (and it was a few weeks ago that I read it), but it seems that the date of the final game is irrelevant. The season runs to the end of May, essentially.
  • Calleri played twice with the U23s, v West Brom 31/10 and v Blackburn 21/11, he crossed for Fletcher to score in the first and crossed for Fletcher to play back for Samuelson's goal in the second (which pretty much sums him up)

    Fletcher played 10 games with the U23s, scored 3

    But he was only playing against kids ;wink
  • West Ham centre backs August 2020:

    Reece Rice Reece

    I like the sound of that!
  • It's a difficult situation with Martinez (and any youngster) because if he comes in and does well then the expectations would go through the roof , but conversely if he comes in and doesnt score over a period of games then some fans will write him off, say he isnt good enough, could be played out of position, etc, etc, etc. Same with Reece Oxford, was sensational vs Arsenal but some fans on other WHU fan websites fixate that he got turned by Lukaku for a goal, which apparently is a signal that Oxford isnt good enough, not that Lukaku does that to vastly seasoned PL defenders.

    I dont think youth development for the 1st team is an exact science but having a strong, settled and secure first team set up should provide the basis for some to bring through with far less risk involved. WHU should always be more adventurous than cautious with those opportunities because our acadamey is such an integral part of our identity and psyche as club and as fans; naturally it has been a somewhat chaotic time for the club, traversing the financial issues caused by the Icelandics-Relegation under Avram-the BFS era- to the final Boleyn season/stadium move. Without doubt the club on and off the pitch has been very unsettled and one can understand why it has been difficult to bring some through.

    The landscape has changed in modern football; players are having longer careers, young players are playing less, waiting much longer for debuts, substantial financial resources, acadamey culture much more competitive, etc, etc so its no great surprise why English football as a whole is struggling to produce players and why so many fall down to the lower leagues or even out of the game. An important part of the development process is being bypassed at such a vital age and part of their careers that often leaves them in limbo and having to rebuild, having gone from the very top on the back of big promises and attention, to suddenly being released, cut adrift, looking for a way back to rebuild.

    A settled and stable first team set up should allow more to come through and it underlines, for me, how important it is to have a manager in place for the long term (and subsequently one of many reasons why I would like to see the club give Slaven a new contract) because if a club is only fixed on the short term then the manager will simply resort to signing more experienced and trusted players, its a natural instinct when your job is always on the line with a couple of bad run of results. As for us, I think Cullen and Burke have done their apprenticeships away from the club and are in 2 positions where WHU have very good depth and strength, so I think the opportunity is there to make them part of the 1st team squad next season, especially when we do have genuine variation in our formations and systems.

  • TWC ;ok

    I agree with all of that. The only thing I would say different is that if Cullen isn't going to be a regular first team member (I don't see why he couldn't usurp Nordtveit or even Fernandes in the pecking order), and Bradford go up, then I would probably let him make the decision for himself. "Do you want to go back to Bradford and play 46 games in the Championship next season, or stay?"
  • Whatever formation we go with next season, we will for the most part play with two central CMs. Based on what we've seen this season, I would expect to see Obiang and Kouyate as favourites for the starting berths, with Noble and Fernandes as Bilic's first reserves.

    Which means Cullen doesn't get a look in, unless he pulls up some pretty hefty trees in pre-season. I think he'd benefit a lot from a full seaosn in the Championship, but at what point does he get a shot in the PL? ;hmm
  • TBH I think it only fair to Cullen to offer him the choice of leaving permanently and securing first team football somewhere else.
  • I disagree.

    I think it's "fair" to offer him the opportunity to be a member of the first team squad, competing with Kouyate, Obiang, Noble, Nordtveit & Fernandes, or to go on loan again for a season.
  • Alderz, ;thumbsup ;thumbsup ;thumbsup Completely agree. If Bradford do go up then there is a strong argument for both Reece Burke and Josh Cullen to perhaps go back there on loan and get a full championship season behind them, which would be fantastic for them in the same way our own relegation helped Tomkins, Reid, Noble, etc develop as well in such a strong league but with the caveat of already having established themselves with their loan club, built a rapport with the club, the trust of the manager/fans and so on.

    I suppose for me it comes down to some kind of strategic planning because you want the acadamey players to have belief in a pathway to the first team, to feel inclusion, to believe in how the club are managing their careers, without the feeling of holding onto them for too long because it could reach a stage whereby they can only wait for so long before they feel the need to move on if the opportunities at WHU are not there. The club has a core responsibility with this and their approach to transfers because if they sign players whilst Burke and Cullen are out on loan, which blocks their path then that wouldnt feel right.

    Everyone has their own views as to the make up of the squad, how they see personnel in and out of the club, how much depth they feel is needed, etc, etc. I myself prefer a smaller, more versatile squad over an larger more experienced one but I can see the reasoning behind both, it's all subjective and up for debate. I think in Burke (21 in Sept), Oxford (19 in Dec) and Rice (19 in Jan) we do genuinely have 3 very gifted CB's but you cant just chuck them into the PL all at once, however over the next 2-4 seasons with Collins (34 in August) and Fonte (34 in Dec) getting on (Reid and Ogbonna both 28, entering their primes), there is a chance to somewhat successor plan, to hopefully ease them in and develop them in a strong PL environment on the back of some core loan experience. Idealistically at least!
  • If you haven't made it before you turn 21 you probably aren't going to make it to the first team. I would say next season is Burke's do or die season either he makes it or he gets moved on simply.
  • If you haven't made it before you turn 21 you probably aren't going to make it to the first team. I would say next season is Burke's do or die season either he makes it or he gets moved on simply.

    History is littered with players who didn't look as though they would make the grade at 21, went off to play at a lower level and ended up back in the top flight with another club, Jamie Vardy being the obvious example
  • edited May 2017
    True ASLEF but for a Premier League club its a results based business if you are still around 21 years old upwards and are not getting in the first team you are probably never getting there as either you're not good enough or the club will fill whatever position it is that you could play in with someone probably the same age but more capable. (especially at Premier League level with the resources available)

    Burke is 21 in Sept so I would say if he isn't cracking the first team next season or getting on the bench and getting a few appearances here and there he should be allowed to move on to a club who will provide the first team opportunities regularly to play.
  • "The main goal for me, and my dream growing up, is to play for West Ham and that is still what I'm striving to achieve."
    ;bowdown
  • I like that the BBC are saying that the song is a 'unique' one, given every club has been singing that since we started the Payet one
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