"That's what I do; I win". But can David Moyes ever really win with West ham fans?

OldCastleSwift

Fortuneseeker said:

Lukerz, I really hope that I am not the only person who thinks this, I am pretty confident that I am not, but he could have got his transfer business done far earlier than he did & then he wouldn't need to roll out the excuses he is currently using.

You're not. As has been discussed on the transfer thread, more could (should?) have been done earlier to allow the number of new players we needed time to integrate and get match fit and tactically aware.

Whether that is on Moyes, the board, or a combination of both we'll probably never know for sure.

OldCastleSwift

Although this extract from a 2014 Independent article sounds unerringly familiar:

"At Everton, Moyes acquired the most unwanted of nicknames – 'Dithering Dave' – because of the inordinate length of time he often took to make a decision, especially when it came to transfers. Moyes continued his policy of making personal checks on players when he moved to United, regularly being photographed at foreign stadiums. That was fine in the club's eyes, but he also continued to delay making decisions.

Last summer was a write-off, despite the club refusing to bow to pressure to sell Rooney, and the signing of Marouane Fellaini for £27m, it was a grim portent of things to come. As was Moyes's decision to pull the plug on an advanced negotiation for Barcelona's Thiago Alcantara, who was allowed to then join Bayern Munich.

Moyes was not even sure he wanted Fellaini: in the event, the Belgium midfielder was acquired as a last resort and the unedifying deadline day scramble did not do him or the club any favours. United wanted a marquee signing, a player who would prove that there was life beyond Ferguson and knew if they acquired one, such as Gareth Bale, it would be a huge statement of intent. The Bale negotiations were left ridiculously late.

That a big name signing did not materialise was not entirely Moyes' fault: other senior figures at the club also need to accept responsibility. Moyes spent much of his time at the club overhauling antiquated scouting systems and providing a huge and thoroughly modern database on players which will still be used."

Fortuneseeker

Lukerz, Maybe so but many have asked why can other clubs get their transfer business done quickly but we can't, is David Moyes part of the problem?

Thanks to OCS who has found evidence to indicate he is?

Hamstew

I'm sure if he wanted Cornet that much he could have got him very early on in the window.

Lukerz

Fortuneseeker said:

Lukerz, Maybe so but many have asked why can other clubs get their transfer business done quickly but we can't, is David Moyes part of the problem?

Thanks to OCS who has found evidence to indicate he is?

I think the infinite amount of factors involved make this a hard one to break down.

Lukerz

OldCastleSwift said:

Although this extract from a 2014 Independent article sounds unerringly familiar:

"At Everton, Moyes acquired the most unwanted of nicknames – 'Dithering Dave' – because of the inordinate length of time he often took to make a decision, especially when it came to transfers. Moyes continued his policy of making personal checks on players when he moved to United, regularly being photographed at foreign stadiums. That was fine in the club's eyes, but he also continued to delay making decisions.

Last summer was a write-off, despite the club refusing to bow to pressure to sell Rooney, and the signing of Marouane Fellaini for £27m, it was a grim portent of things to come. As was Moyes's decision to pull the plug on an advanced negotiation for Barcelona's Thiago Alcantara, who was allowed to then join Bayern Munich.

Moyes was not even sure he wanted Fellaini: in the event, the Belgium midfielder was acquired as a last resort and the unedifying deadline day scramble did not do him or the club any favours. United wanted a marquee signing, a player who would prove that there was life beyond Ferguson and knew if they acquired one, such as Gareth Bale, it would be a huge statement of intent. The Bale negotiations were left ridiculously late.

That a big name signing did not materialise was not entirely Moyes' fault: other senior figures at the club also need to accept responsibility. Moyes spent much of his time at the club overhauling antiquated scouting systems and providing a huge and thoroughly modern database on players which will still be used."

This to me looks like an opinion piece more than a factual retelling.

Lukerz

Hamstew said:

I'm sure if he wanted Cornet that much he could have got him very early on in the window.

I think it’s clear he was second choice behind Lingard, which we only pursued once Lingard decided to go to Forest.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

This to me looks like an opinion piece more than a factual retelling.

By Jason Burt, based on a conversations with a 'senior Man Utd sources'.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/manchester-united/five-reasons-why-dithering-dave-had-to-go-30221116.html

Of course, there could a lot of hyperbole involved, but a lot of what is written here sounds similar to what we're seeing at West Ham.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

Fortuneseeker said:

Lukerz, Maybe so but many have asked why can other clubs get their transfer business done quickly but we can't, is David Moyes part of the problem?

Thanks to OCS who has found evidence to indicate he is?

I think the infinite amount of factors involved make this a hard one to break down.

But what's the only constant in the reported 'dithering' at Everton, Man Utd and West Ham?

I absolutely agree that there are other factors, but for Moyes to be involved in three clubs that were seen to be ponderous in the transfer market during his time there isn't a coincidence, IMO.

Lukerz

But dithering is the negative spin on it. Selective, careful, diligent is the positive spin. Depends which way you want to look at it. Given what he achieved at Everton, & what has since been achieved at Man Utd, I find it a bit rich to excuse him of dithering in the transfer market.

OldCastleSwift

It's why I put 'dithering', because it's a perception rather than a fact. I guess how you view it comes down to how successful you think the windows have been. Last summer, his selective, careful and diligent approach lead to two of the four players he signed rarely being played and binned off twelve months later.

His selective, careful and diligent approach in January lead to him signing nobody.

His selective, careful and diligent approach this summer has meant that we weren't ready for the start of the season and have lost three from three.

MrsGrey

Fortuneseeker said:

Lukerz, Maybe so but many have asked why can other clubs get their transfer business done quickly but we can't, is David Moyes part of the problem?

I don't accept the premise of the comparison unless you prove it.
Find me facts that prove some clubs ( name them) consistently get ALL their transfer business done quickly ( and define quickly).

I don't believe you can.

BubblesNeverDies

One of the things that I took from that Independent article was the point about regimented training and fitness, "... disaffection also stemmed from the training itself: the long sessions, relentless drills and unremitting focus on fitness work".

Maybe that's why the players look tired - they've left it all on the training ground.

Fortuneseeker

MrsG, Ah a lack of facts stifling a moan 😃. You are right I can’t prove that in every window say Arsenal or Villa or Liverpool conclude their transfers early but what is a frustration is we knew that we needed certain positions strengthening & nine days from the deadline we still haven’t addressed some of the of the problems. 👍

Ravel49

I didn’t realise that #moyesout was actually trending on twitter yesterday

ASLEFshrugged

Ravel49 said:

I didn’t realise that #moyesout was actually trending on twitter yesterday

#moyesout has been trending on Twiitter since 29 December 2019.

Some people just don't like him although the ones I've talked to are unable to suggest a realistic alternative

OldCastleSwift

ASLEFshrugged said:

Some people just don't like him although the ones I've talked to are unable to suggest a realistic alternative

Some don't, never have and probably never will. It's these fans that he'll never win over, short of winning the league or a trophy or two.

Then there's some, I assume, that love him, trust him completely and won't have a bad word said against him.

Then, and this is probably where the majority of us sit, there are those for which Moyes wasn't their first choice, are appreciative of what he's achieved for the club over the last few years, but still have reservations. And I think these are the people that may be starting to wobble in terms of their support.

Lukerz

I sit in the category where I have nothing but admiration for what he has done. Last season was the highest highlight of my entire 18 years supporting the club. The night against Sevilla, the night in Lyon, the occasion of the semi-final, the atmospheres, that run of games between October-November where we seemed unbeatable, the season before, the run of consistency, the top 6 finish, Lingard, Dawson, Antonio, Rice (this ignores the two times he came in at Xmas & ensured we didn't get relegated). I will never call for his head because I don't believe, from what I have seen, there is any better manager, currently, suited to us & what we need.

The transformation on Twitter from that night in Lyon to the immediate reactions after yesterday were, IMO, embarrassing. Each to their own & everybody can have an opinion, but the turning on players, personal comments etc. Not good.

We've a very good, solid squad of players. Other the course of this season, Areola, Aguerd, Kehrer, Scamacca, Cornet are likely to come into the 11 over some under-performing players. But none of those are ready yet (except Areola). They will be, but not now. We don't know how good they are, or if they'll fit into the PL or us as a club, but the club have decided to bring them in & build them into our future. They also have no relationships with the current squad, whereas the likes of Yarmolenko, Fredericks, Martin, Noble, Diop, Masuaku all cleary did, over four years. That with the shift of Rice to club captain has no doubt slightly tweaked the social environment & we've also lost Pearce.

The start to the season is annoying. It smacks of a disjointed pre-season period which is probably the cause. Losing to Brighton is not unusual (they've done it 7/11 times since 2016) but was disappointing. Losing to City is hardly a shock. Losing to Forest was poor, but I think we all predicted a tough game because of the context of the match. These defeats spread over a season would not be horrendous, but all lumped together at the start, heightens the issues.

He'll turn it around. It may not be as successful a seasonal the last two, but we'll get up into the top half at some point.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

I will never call for his head because I don't believe, from what I have seen, there is any better manager, currently, suited to us & what we need.

If we're still bottom of the league at Christmas? How long does credit remain in the bank?

I don't actually disagree with most of what you've said. The last two seasons have been great and he deserves all of the plaudits that he received. And yeah, City, Forest and Brighton were all losable games for one reason or another, and had out luck been in against Forest we'd be 3 from 9 and things wouldn't look so bad.

But none of that makes Moyes immune from criticism. He's done a lot right, but he's also got things wrong, IMO, and currently, the wrong is more at the forefront given our start to the season.

Lukerz

He’s not immune & I think it’s written all over his face in his interviews that he feels he’s mucked up this start as much as anybody, but he’ll sort it.

Ravel49

It’s what he does 😜

Bazshuayi

OutcastLondoner said:

I blame Lingard

Jessebel

Slacker

Lukerz said:

I sit in the category where I have nothing but admiration for what he has done. Last season was the highest highlight of my entire 18 years supporting the club. The night against Sevilla, the night in Lyon, the occasion of the semi-final, the atmospheres, that run of games between October-November where we seemed unbeatable, the season before, the run of consistency, the top 6 finish, Lingard, Dawson, Antonio, Rice (this ignores the two times he came in at Xmas & ensured we didn't get relegated). I will never call for his head because I don't believe, from what I have seen, there is any better manager, currently, suited to us & what we need.

The transformation on Twitter from that night in Lyon to the immediate reactions after yesterday were, IMO, embarrassing. Each to their own & everybody can have an opinion, but the turning on players, personal comments etc. Not good.

We've a very good, solid squad of players. Other the course of this season, Areola, Aguerd, Kehrer, Scamacca, Cornet are likely to come into the 11 over some under-performing players. But none of those are ready yet (except Areola). They will be, but not now. We don't know how good they are, or if they'll fit into the PL or us as a club, but the club have decided to bring them in & build them into our future. They also have no relationships with the current squad, whereas the likes of Yarmolenko, Fredericks, Martin, Noble, Diop, Masuaku all cleary did, over four years. That with the shift of Rice to club captain has no doubt slightly tweaked the social environment & we've also lost Pearce.

The start to the season is annoying. It smacks of a disjointed pre-season period which is probably the cause. Losing to Brighton is not unusual (they've done it 7/11 times since 2016) but was disappointing. Losing to City is hardly a shock. Losing to Forest was poor, but I think we all predicted a tough game because of the context of the match. These defeats spread over a season would not be horrendous, but all lumped together at the start, heightens the issues.

He'll turn it around. It may not be as successful a seasonal the last two, but we'll get up into the top half at some point.

This, very much this.👆👏👏

Kuchinghammer

I had a nightmare last night- West Ham had appointed Brendon Rodgers as its new manager...(apologies for bringing the level of debate down.)

BubblesNeverDies

Kuching - this is no word of a lie, I had the same dream/nightmare.

OldCastleSwift

I mean, Rodgers get plenty of stick, but he's won eight more trophies than Moyes has.
Granted, seven of his nine were with Celtic, but you've still got to get the games over the line.

I'm not saying I want Rodgers here, but I personally don't think he's a worse manager than Moyes. He has a higher career win percentage for a start (again, the near 70% with Celtic may skew the figures somewhat), but removing his time in Scotland it's still 46.3% compared to Moyes' 42.2%.

Both have managed top six PL clubs and have similar records, where Rodgers won 50% of his games at Liverpool over three years compared to Moyes' 52.3% in his year at Man Utd, and Rodgers has a higher PL win rate overall (48.5% v 41.3%).

So people may not like him (I'm not his biggest fan myself),but there's nothing to suggest he's a worse manager than Moyes, and the numbers may even suggest he's a better one.

alderz

I really don’t like him

OldCastleSwift

That does raise another topic of discussion.

I mean, I don't like Klopp. Really can't stand the guy; I find him arrogant, petty and horribly condescending to journalists if things don't go his way. But if he managed West Ham and won us the FA Cup? Reckon I'd forgive all that.

Fortuneseeker

OCS, I expect there are many who could list players they would never want to see playing for us, there are some that we would all agree on, but if they helped us win something then.....?

alderz

OldCastleSwift said:

That does raise another topic of discussion.

I mean, I don't like Klopp. Really can't stand the guy; I find him arrogant, petty and horribly condescending to journalists if things don't go his way. But if he managed West Ham and won us the FA Cup? Reckon I'd forgive all that.

I think there is a line. The only players / managers that I truly don't want associated with the club are those that are unambiguous scumbags. I wouldn't ever want the likes of El-Hadji Diouf or Joey Barton, and nothing will make me change my mind. I don't like Kylian Mbappe, but only because he seems flash and arrogant - I could easily get over that.

It reminds me of that line people used to say about Robbie Savage a lot. "Type of player who you hate, until he plays for your club".

Realistically, I will always get behind 95% of people when they are at the club. It's just those genuinely awful people that I wouldn't want anywhere near us.