West Ham v Wolverhampton Wanderers, Sunday 27th February, 2pm. SKY

MrsGrey

There's a certain threshold of competence they have to cross before they can be considered for the step up, imo.

And only the coaching staff and manager are in a position to judge whether a particular player has done that. After that, it's a judgement call as to when/ how to give them a chance but also not take too great a risk. ( For the team but also risk to the young player.)

OldCastleSwift

If Moyes doesn't think the U23s are good enough - and apologies for sounding like a broken record - then he should have strengthened the first team options when he had the chance to.

I mean, there's an argument to say that a few of our first team players aren't good enough to be playing in the PL at the moment. We use Yarmolenko as the obvious example; he has offered so little for so long that it does beg the question as to whether Oko-Flex can really do any worse?

Lukerz

Moyes’ attitude is not ‘they can’t do any worse’. It’s always ‘can they do better’.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz said:

Moyes’ attitude is not ‘they can’t do any worse’. It’s always ‘can they do better’.

I don't mind so much that they kids aren't starting....

But how is Yarmolenko, Fredericks, Kral, Masuaku etc. Seemed 'better' to sit/come off the bench

I have also been disappointed with Moyes and the youth

Think we are 2nd in the U23 league and while that doesn't offer any guarantees surely one of two are better than what we have in the bench

Yarmolenko, Fredericks are gone in the summer, Kral is pretty much a sure bet to have his loan terminated

And how many points does Diop have to cost us before we make a call and drop him?

Maybe we do need a little energy and a little lift just to get a couple 3 points on the line

Youth players often come in for 2/3 games an perform amazingly then they taper off and find their level, just the added buzz and sharpness they bring can really help the team

I just can't agree that they aren't 'good enough' if Yarmolenko etc. Are considered 'good enough'

OldCastleSwift

Champo 👍

If you don't test the kids then you'll never know. Harry Kane, who had a few unspectacular loans, only got a shot at Spurs because Roberto Soldado was injured. And I'm not saying that Sonny Perkins is as good as Kane, but maybe a couple of games in the PL could show that's he's at least good enough to be a viable alternative to Antonio.

I know Moyes is a pragmatist and won't take risks where points are at stake, but sometimes in this game you've got to take a punt, particulalry if Plan A isn't working and your Plan B is Andriy Yarmolenko.

On the flip side of course, it could just be that none of the U23s are good enough for the PL. For example, Conor Coventry struggled in the Championship with Peterborough but is tearing it up at MK Dons in League One. Great to see him doing well, but maybe that's his level. Maybe Moyes saw that in the summer which is why he let him go on loan. Same with Alves; struggled in League One and subsequently sold in January. Deemed not good enough.

But my point remains that if the official back up to the first team isn't considered good enough to back them up, then more effort should have been made to strengthen the first team over the last couple of windows. Because as it is we're seeing too many first team players struggling for form with no competition (or at least from anyone that Moyes trusts).

Lukerz

But the difference with Kane is clearly the coaching staff felt that they could give this kid a chance should the need arise. Soldado was off the boil, they felt this was a guy ready to have a real crack at PL football. The proof there is he has gone on to be one of the best strikers in world football. It wasn’t just ‘lob in the U23 striker & see what happens’. There is clearly a judgement call to be made by coaching staff & if they feel that player is not at the level needed (mentality, fitness, technical, confidence, personality) to be included in the squad, the likes of Yarmolenko will continue on the bench (a proven international footballer with experience, whether we rate him or not).

thornburyiron

Apart from Fredericks most of our backups are current full internationals. Yarmo is Ukraine captain, Kral is a Czech regular as is Vlasic with Croatia. Benrhama is in the Algerian set up and Lanzini was until his injury in the Argentinian squad. Common sense would suggest that they should be a better bet than an untried youngsters who I assume are all regularly watched in training and u23 games.

OutcastLondoner

Yarmolenko is definitely lobbed in with the hope he’ll do something. Even Vlasic kind of is.

I think Anthony Elanga is a really good example of a young player who has been used in a first team and shown fearlessness and energy. I don’t think he’s got that much quality and is certainly not near Sancho, who he was replacing. Sancho was clearly suffering a mental block which he’s now got over - maybe the competition helped.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

But the difference with Kane is clearly the coaching staff felt that they could give this kid a chance should the need arise. Soldado was off the boil, they felt this was a guy ready to have a real crack at PL football. The proof there is he has gone on to be one of the best strikers in world football. It wasn’t just ‘lob in the U23 striker & see what happens’.

How do we know what the Spurs coaches were thinking? What were Spurs' options? The fact he went on to be world class isn't proof that they knew he would be. In the same way that we didn't know Rice would become as good as he is. We were one day away from releasing him just before his debut, from what I remember, so the club clearly had doubts about him.

The fact is that Kane was untested in the PL. He has a few loans over the years (14 goals in 56 League One and Championship games which is noting spectacular) before making his first PL start. He scored three in three and the rest is history.

Again, I'm not saying we have anyone that good on our books, but the bottom line is we don't know, just as Spurs didn't know how Kane would fare in the PL. And we'll never know unless they're given a chance.

And as far as I'm concerned, with only one hopelessly out of form striker at the club, there's no better time to find out than now.

OldCastleSwift

thornburyiron said:

Apart from Fredericks most of our backups are current full internationals. Yarmo is Ukraine captain, Kral is a Czech regular as is Vlasic with Croatia. Benrhama is in the Algerian set up and Lanzini was until his injury in the Argentinian squad. Common sense would suggest that they should be a better bet than an untried youngsters who I assume are all regularly watched in training and u23 games.

'Should be' being the salient point. But Moyes clearly doesn't consider most of them to be good enough as he either doesn't play them regularly (Vlasic, Yarmolenko), at all (Kral) or subs them 90% of the time (Benrahma).

Again, if he doesn't trust players in his first team squad, and doesn't trust the U23s to step up, then he should have done more to bring in players he does think are good enough.


Anyway, Wolves at home. Still thinking loss.

OldCastleSwift

OutcastLondoner said:

Yarmolenko is definitely lobbed in with the hope he’ll do something. Even Vlasic kind of is.

I think Anthony Elanga is a really good example of a young player who has been used in a first team and shown fearlessness and energy. I don’t think he’s got that much quality and is certainly not near Sancho, who he was replacing. Sancho was clearly suffering a mental block which he’s now got over - maybe the competition helped.

Antonio himself has said he wants competition.

Currently his only competition is busy being our best winger. Move him inside and you weaken another area of the pitch.

Antonio knows he's undroppable, and consciously or otherwise, I believe it's affecting his performances.

Fortuneseeker

I know Moyes is a pragmatist and won't take risks where points are at stake.

You don't need to guess what my response to this is?

IronHerb

'Antonio himself has said he wants competition'

That's his excuse for poor form.

Deanscaleshammer

I follow Workington Reds. Non league, part time players that may have started in the leagues. Some are hugely experienced and savvy. Often, they can also be intimidating physically and verbally.

Often full time youngsters from Leagues 1 or 2 are sent to develop from Carlisle or other full time sides. It can be a huge change from what they are used to. Although they are talented and technically more gifted, many are overwhelmed, never to recover.

If I were Moyes I would see my stewardship of young talent as a huge responsibility with big downsides if I judged it wrong.

ASLEFshrugged

Rice and Fredericks on Sky Sports Saturday Social reckon that Vlasic could give Antonio some competition, Rice say he's one of the top three strongest players he's played with and both claim he has a decent shot with both feet


Hmmmmmmmm

OutcastLondoner

Moyes has obviously been reading my team suggestions.

He does look quite strong to be fair.

claretandbluesky

Worth a go as we need a plan B if Antonio isn't doing it.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Ex says that Coufal has had surgery on his groin, will be out for a good time, maybe not till the final few games

Fredericks and Johnson now competing for the RB spot, Johnson has had his 2 year option taken on his contract

Do wonder if this is a new injury to coufal or a persisting one, he's been well off the pace this season compared to last

Great chance for Johnson in his natural position, I just pray Fredericks doesn't play...hes a liability...would even have Ashby over him

OldCastleSwift

We're lucky that this has happened in one of the few positions we have some depth.

Johnson now has a chance to stake his claim as a long-term RB option. The only worry is that if Cresswell gets injured we have no LB cover now. Unless Johnson is moved again and Fredericks plays. But Fredericks is a) injury prone himself and b) not very good at PL level.

Ashby didn't play in the last U23 game; I wonder if they knew then that he might be needed in the first team picture 🤔

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Wolves conceded a 95th minute goal to lose last night

Here's hoping it knocked a bit out of them

Gonna be a tough game, can see a draw but feel like we need to win here to gain a bit of momentum back

epsom_bubbles

Need to win to get back above Arsenal

Lukerz

Gutting that last minute winner. A draw would have been perfect.

ASLEFshrugged

Moyes says he's given Yarmolenko a few days off so I guess he won't be available

Coufal had a hernia, Oggy's still recovering and they are "managing" Masuaku's knee. No other injuries mentioned

Wolves will be without RWB Nelson Semada who picked up a hamstring injury against Arsenal last night. He was replaced by Jonny Otto who was out with a knee injury until three weeks ago but Lage could use Dutch U23 Ki-Jana Hoever

OldCastleSwift

OldCastleSwift said:

We're lucky that this has happened in one of the few positions we have some depth.

Johnson now has a chance to stake his claim as a long-term RB option. The only worry is that if Cresswell gets injured we have no LB cover now. Unless Johnson is moved again and Fredericks plays. But Fredericks is a) injury prone himself and b) not very good at PL level.

Ashby didn't play in the last U23 game; I wonder if they knew then that he might be needed in the first team picture 🤔

And, as sure as night follows day, Fredericks is injured. Subbed off against Newcastle with a groin injury, according to Moyes:

"Ryan picked up a groin strain, not too bad, but we have Ben who is a young and progressing player and he has done really really well, left-back, right-back and done well and we like him a lot.”

Lukerz

Fredericks makes Andy Carroll look like, well, not Andy Carroll

Lukerz

I saw a few people suggest that Moyes goes to a flat 4-3-3.

Fabianski
Johnson - Dawson - Zouma - Cresswell
Rice - Soucek - Fornals
Bowen - Antonio - Vlasic

I think this could work but it would mean Fornals must stay in the middle & not drift away.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

Fredericks makes Andy Carroll look like, well, not Andy Carroll

He's the third full back we've lost to injury in recent weeks. By the sounds of it, two of the three were carrying the injuries during, if not before, January.

And Moyes has said of the U23s:

"We have got one or two around who are doing okay, but it will mainly be the group of players that we have got."

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We have a small squad as it is, didn't do any business in the last window despite knowing players were carrying injuries, and nor does Moyes want to use the reserves.

It piles pressure onto the 15 outfield players left standing to step up, whilst increasing the risk of them getting injured.

Going into the Wolves game, Lanzini is carrying an injury (although he has trained) and Yarmolenko is probably out of the squad for personal reasons, so Oko-Flex and/or Chesters may make the bench at least.

Lukerz

I would go

Fabianski
Johnson - Dawson - Zouma - Cresswell
Rice - Soucek - Fornals
Bowen - Antonio - Vlasic

I feel we regularly lose out down our left with lacking natural balance. When there’s no Cresswell we have to go with Johnson or Fredericks, we often play Fornals/Lanzini/Benrahma on the left who are all right footed. I feel we lack that direct option to put a cross straight into the box when we attack down this side, with us trying to cut inside & either go back or make our way to the box or we whip in a cross, right footed, which often drifts too close to the keeper.

ASLEFshrugged

Cresswell crosses into the box have been highlighted by various pundits, more than compensate for playing right footed attacking midfielders on the left

At the same time the loss of Semedo does reduce the threat down that side of the pitch

I'd play Fornals in the middle with either Benrahma or Vlasic wide left.

OldCastleSwift

Fornals in the middle, Benrahma on the left, Vlasic up front, Antonio impact sub.