Smash Those Potters - Stoke (A) Match Thread 16.12.17 3pm

TheMadcapLaughs

If you look at this from the refs view, and the dive is seen to be blatant, surely it`s the ref who should be hauled over the coals. Couldn`t be in a better position.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/12/17/22/4767DF4800000578-0-Lanzini_made_the_most_of_the_challenge_as_he_won_his_side_a_pena-a-24_1513549878889.jpg

Adam

OutcastLondoner said:

Adam said:

It’s simple. There should be Video Referees. If a referee awards a penalty, it always takes at least a minute for everyone to calm down and for the penalty taker to get ready.

During that time, the video referee takes a look at the footage. If the footage shows that contact was initiated by the attacker (or there wasn’t any contact at all), then reverse the decision. Give the attacker a yellow card if it’s easy to tell it was 100% a dive, i.e. no contact at all.

If the video is inconclusive (or the video referee can’t decide), then the referee’s decision stands.

This way the team who were defending get the correct decision during the game and don’t suffer.

There won’t be any of this 2-game ban nonsense.

What happens when a penalty isn’t given? Does the team get to call it and we end losing a counter attack opportunity?

If the penalty is overturned and it’s deemed a dive, then it’s a free kick to the defending team.

If the penalty is overturned and it’s not deemed a dive - this would be very rare as the video referee would need to be sure it’s not a penalty due to some reason like an accidental collision - then I guess the fairest thing might be a drop ball at the centre circle?

The most important thing is that the penalty decision is correct, less so the potential counter attacking opportunity. You could argue that the attacking team would have had another opportunity in certain situations, if the referee hadn’t given the penalty!

alderz

Adam

I think Outcast was asking what would happen if a team appealed for a penalty and the ref didn’t give it. The opposition team break, but at what point does the VR come into effect? Do you stop the counter to look at it? Do you wait for the ball to go out of play? What if they went and scored at the other end and then the VR brought it back?

I think VR works in a lot of sports because of the natural breaks, but that isn’t really the case in football.

OutcastLondoner

Yes that’s what I meant, Alderz.

Even if you say play continues and the VR examines it in the meantime, bringing it back if they find something, they’re going to be doing it under pressure to go quickly. Can you make a decision about one like Lanzini’s in those conditions?

Lukerz

Alderz/outcast ;ok unless you restrict it to decisions which are made (so a natural break). So a referee deems q tackle/foul not to be a penalty cannot be looked at, but a referee or official giving a penalty that is deemed controversial can be reviewed. So a natural break is in play to take it. Same with offside. Offside calls that result in a goal can be challenged (given on when off) but no other way. For example, when the flag is up and the ref blows for offside, all defenders stop anyway, so to then allow him to score and review it, it is deemed ‘onside’ and let the goal stand would be unfair as it was not a natural course of play.

Not ideal, but seems the only realistic way.

Adam

Ah, ok. I see VR being used in natural stops at the beginning. That is, to correct a ‘positive’ decision by the referee. By that I mean VR is used when the referee gives a penalty or gives a red card, etc.

Not when the referee doesn’t give the decision.

Barney

Madcaps picture appears to show the defenders hip going into Lanzini and I am sure that is what the referee saw. I dont think he dived; he appears to be trying to ride the tackle and the defender had to go through him to gt to the ball (which he is not anywhere near). successful appeal - I hope!

secrethammersfan

I reckon VR will just be used to enhance the current instances where the referee takes advice from the linesmen and fourth official.

NEoldiron

Luke, the obvious get out for the referee would be to award a penalty every time thus creating a break in play, knowing that VR would be used to determine the validity of the decision.

NEoldiron

The problem with Madcap's picture is that Manu's arms seem to be in the exaggerated position that we normally call out as being a dive. Unfortunately ;wink

TheMadcapLaughs

I think De Bruynes is a more obvious dive, I`m not sure he gets touched at all. If Lanzini`s appeal is turned down, it makes the ref look a right numpty. I`m also not sure where else his arms would be, if you fall they go either straight up or straight out. Unless you have them in your pockets of course.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Barney said:

Madcaps picture appears to show the defenders hip going into Lanzini and I am sure that is what the referee saw. I dont think he dived; he appears to be trying to ride the tackle and the defender had to go through him to gt to the ball (which he is not anywhere near). successful appeal - I hope!

Lanzini has left the ground and dived into the defender’s thigh, so has already dived before contact happens.

MunichHammer

alderz said:

Adam

I think Outcast was asking what would happen if a team appealed for a penalty and the ref didn’t give it. The opposition team break, but at what point does the VR come into effect? Do you stop the counter to look at it? Do you wait for the ball to go out of play? What if they went and scored at the other end and then the VR brought it back?

I think VR works in a lot of sports because of the natural breaks, but that isn’t really the case in football.

That happened recently, I think it was in the Dutch league. I posted something at the time.
Team a wanted a pen, team b broke and scored. The ref then ruled out the goal and awarded the pen instead.

claretandbluesky

That's the right call in my view, the game must play until a natural break but if the penalty gets awarded any goals scored after are ruled out just like an offside in which the striker scores but the flag is then seen by the referee, the ball went in the net but due to an earlier infringement the goal is disallowed. The linesman is in effect an earlier version of assistance to the referee that video will be soon.

jay_in_cpt

No surprise IMO
Lanzini failed appeal.
2 match ban.

Yeoldhammer

Does 1 of those games count tonight

jay_in_cpt

Yeoldhammer said:

Does 1 of those games count tonight

Yes

Fortuneseeker

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5192169/Are-confused-panel-wearing-blindfolds.html

Thankfully someone else thinks Zaha gets away with things?

OldCastleSwift

That article is spot on. I'm all for punishing diving, but it has to be consistent.

I'm not too worried about losing Lanzini for tonight - he was desperately ineffective against Arsenal last time out - but we really need him for the Newcastle game.

thornburyiron

Maybe if we hadn't appealed it would have been a different outcome. Apparently if you appeal a different panel makes a decision to the one that would have decided.

IronHerb

The decision had been made and the appeal was against that decision.

claretandbluesky

Someone should make a website showing up the FA and referees for their inconsistency as until it is put in the spotlight they wont correct themselves. I guess it would be difficult due to ownership of the clips which would belong to Sky, BT or some other broadcaster.

EXETERHAMMER

I have to agree with the punishment. I think he dived and would be livid if it had been the other way around.

buffybegood

I agree Exeter, but it's the lack of consistency, even when being viewed retrospectively, that is most annoying.

OldCastleSwift

So Gray has just dived to 'earn' Leicester a penalty.

Watch this space then...

Fortuneseeker

What then happens if Manchester City get knocked out?

Vorselaarhammer

The world stops spinning I think...

Cuz1

It will mean Leicester will be in the semis

welovethehammers

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Should De Bruyne be punished and suspended also (plus a few others but I can`t be bothered to find the videos). Blatant dive, no?

https://streamable.com/dqm46

If Lanzini`s suspension gets upheld and no other incidents are investigated from the weekend it shows what a mockery the whole procedure is. Absolute disgrace.

I agree and said a similar thing yesterday. They punish the smaller Premier League clubs like West Ham for diving (let me get this clear I do think Lanzini dived) but they won't punish players in top teams. I don't think this is a coincidence in the slightest.

ASLEFshrugged

They didn't punish Palace for Zaha's dives