Burnley (Away) 14th October 3pm (match thread)

Yeoldhammer

4/10 points minimum 4/12 total

Yeoldhammer

next 2 are must wins to get us on track

SuzanneClaret

We should have won today.

Pengeman

Carroll cost us 2 points today with his stupidity. The 10 men played well. The Carroll out it creates an opportunity for Sakho and hope that he takes it. Cresswell didn't really put in a challenge to stop the Burnley cross that led to the goal. For the next game would like to see Sakho and Marsuaku get a chance.

thornburyiron

Jorderz there was consistency as far as AC was concerned. He was booked for leading with his elbow and then did exactly the same 90 seconds later. If one of theirs had done it we'd have expected a yellow.
I think he was trying too hard because he wasn't winning many headers at that point.

baracks_a_hammer

Yeoldhammer said:

a point is good though away from home

Well yes that would be perfectly true if we were a side looking confident and playing well in our home fixtures..

OldCastleSwift

thornburyiron said:

I think he was trying too hard because he wasn't winning many headers at that point.

I think you're spot on there Thorn. Kammy was covering the game for SSN and he said the two Burnley centre halves were winning everything.

Which is why I think Sakho would have been the better option. Him and Hernandez would have run the channels and given the defence more to think about.

baracks_a_hammer

Sakho and Arthur showed the only real bit of quality v Swansea so it clearly made perfect sense not to play either today

Huttonhammer

Good point when all said and done.
We have some idiotic players and you cannot blame Bilic for their actions .
It just seems that we are our own worst enemy and sendings off like Carroll’s and Arnautovic’s are just pure stupidity and mean we will continue to struggle.

alderz

I think Arthur didn’t start because it was a back 4 and he can’t defend that well (not that Cresswell is doing much better at the moment but that’s where the logic was imo)

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

thornburyiron said:

Jorderz there was consistency as far as AC was concerned. He was booked for leading with his elbow and then did exactly the same 90 seconds later. If one of theirs had done it we'd have expected a yellow.
I think he was trying too hard because he wasn't winning many headers at that point.

There was, but what about Barnes leading with his elbow and taking out Hart? Nothing given and they score two minutes later.

jay_in_cpt

I'm not one to bash on refrerees however I think Mr Atwell had a trying game to say the least...
AC's 1st yellow was 50/50 IMO ..
The 2nd fair enough, while AC was naive to say the least, I think the ref could have warned him , but saying that the 2nd yellow was worse than the 1st....
AC let us down but I can't remember so many 50/50 decisions going against us for ages, a rookie ref with a poor
Performance overall , he nearly lost total control of the game IMO
Any case we won't get Mr Atwell again for a while and now AC can pay for his foolishness ....
Pity we couldn't hang on but all considering a point will have to do..

thornburyiron

Atwell isn't a rookie ref. He first refereed in the PL about 9 years ago but spent 3 years in the EFL. He's also an international ref

claretandbluesky

I think we would have gone on to take three points with a performance that would have left us more than happy. Burnley having gone one down would have needed push forward and with two strikers we would have exploited that, as it was they were able to come forward without fear of getting caught due to AC's stupidity, so just as Arto did against Soton, player stupidity cost us points in my view.

My take on the incident is that the first was a touch harsh and had they come the other way around he would not have got sent off for the first were it the second one. However with them being the way around they were the ref had no choice. I like Andy Carroll but that was brainless, to have just been booked and yet the very next challenge you launch yourself from afar leading with your elbow defies belief, Arto's against soton was cynical but Carroll's just stupid.

The team however played very well with 10 men and defended well until the goal, for which I feel Fonte had a duty to jump even if not likely to reach as he would have mis sighted anyone behind him, as it was he allowed their player to get his eye in and attack the ball sighted.

In all we are looking better than many teams this season so I don't feel we will be in a scrap come March but it will be a grind and a waste of a season, something it really shouldn't have been. In my view we should have had a point at Soton and three here so would have added three points to our total which would have us on 11 and in 9th as of writing.

As for individual players I feel Reid is our most essential at present and Antonio not far behind, as long as they stay fit we will pick up points.

SuzanneClaret

I've finished throwing my toys out of the pram....


Oh hang on...

;deadhorse

jay_in_cpt

Thorn in comparison to most PL refs his appearances are minimal

baracks_a_hammer

I know I really shouldn't be thinking or saying this, but as far as I'm concerned it may as well have been 0 points because this is how I am feeling this evening...

Lukerz

Missed a trick with Marco Silva

EXETERHAMMER

Just found out the score. I would have taken this before kick off. Even more so if I had known we would have had to play with ten men for an hour.

steve

;hmm does carroll get 1 game ban or 3

Fortuneseeker

Stuart Attwell had lost control after an early refusal to punish fouls sufficiently and West Ham were merely pushing the boundaries. That is a must here in East Lancashire and Carroll cannot truly be faulted for the first foul.
He was giving back what Tarkowski had laid on moments before. Unfortunately, Marko Arnautovic had his own brush with the officials too and cards were on Attwell's mind. Attwell's performance, upsetting everybody, is the sort which comes with police escorts on the continent.
Carroll's second foul, however, was reprehensible. The action, with eyes fixed on Mee, coupled with the proximity made it completely brainless. Inexcusable, Bilic thought.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4980316/Burnley-1-1-West-Ham.html#ixzz4vVlTCVPs

steve One game I think.

Moore_than_a_nick

On the bright side, for me, at least Bilic won't be able to play AC when I go to see us play Brighton. Seems like more obstinacy not to start Sakho. As if to say "yes, it really was a matchwinning stroke of genius to bring him on as a sub against Swansea rather than start him as most of the fans would have done (what do they know?)". The guy's full of confidence - finally - after scoring for us and then Senegal, and Bilic starts someone who hasn't scored for months and months ahead of him... I am passed giving up on Bilic.

On the downside, shame we - and Bilic - didn't get a chance to see if 4-4-2 with Arnie and Antonio on the wings (how wide did they play?) can work for us. Arnie certainly doesn't strike me as well suited to that role - much better in a front 3. Antonio is also well suited to this role, but I think he used to play more as a winger. If we are going to play 4-4-2, I'd play Masuaku left wing. How did Arnie do?

Adam

alderz said:

I think Arthur didn’t start because it was a back 4 and he can’t defend that well (not that Cresswell is doing much better at the moment but that’s where the logic was imo)

I've always thought Creswell and Masuaku have the same defending ability (i.e. not that good). In fact, Masuaku is quite good at standing up to a player and nicking the ball off him, not to mention his pace which allows him to recover quicker.

MrsGrey

steve said:

;hmm does carroll get 1 game ban or 3

2.yellows is a 1 game ban.


Thought the ref was poor. Inconsistent throughout, missed stuff, let things go, poor positioning, got the players wound up... Not sure if we benefitted overall or not. Bit of a shambles.

Vorselaarhammer

Just seen MOTD, it seems like we got lucky in terms chances, it was a pen against Hart it was a red for AC.

So I think we got away with a point.

I was wrong it was Liv / Man Utd last, has that ever happened before....

grey_til_I_dye

Vorse

Don't think the 2nd was a red for AC. It was a yellow, fair enough, but we've all seen lots of games where refs have held back a deserved 2nd as it would mean sending the player off.

I've no problem if they all stop doing that, but you know that won't happen.

ASLEFshrugged

Just watched the first half, Carroll got smacked in the back of the head with Tarkowski's elbow about ten minutes before he got sent off, we didn't even get a foul for that but maybe that was because AC didn't go down

Vorselaarhammer

Hi Grey I think the fact that AC covered 15 meters before flying into the defender didn’t help the Ref in terms of giving a warning and not a yellow.

grey_til_I_dye

Vorse

I agree AC didn't help himself, but Atwell was inconsistent and weak throughout the game, imo.

I think a lot of refs would have let themselves have a bit of a think, pulled the captain, and put AC on final notice.

As I said, if they never did it, fair enough, but when you don't know who will, and when, or why, it makes it a bit of a mockery/lottery.

Lukerz

Atwell, like Mike Jones, has always been pretty abject. He's yo-yo'd between leagues and whenever he does officiate in the Premier League, it'll always be Stoke-Watford, Burnley-West Ham etc. Never will he officiate a game of great importance in the eye of the media and football world.

I agree with grey to a degree, most officials like to keep the game 11v11 and for me that should always be the aim when refereeing games. Only when you have no choice do you pull out the red or second yellow. I don't think yesterday was a 'no choice' moment.

However, AC was incredibly naive given his experience. Had a 20 year old done it I maybe would've had some sympathy. But AC knows the game, knows the little things teams do to gain an advantage. He needed to cool off. Going around, given his frame, like a Bull to a red flag so soon is always going to put him at risk. I felt the ref had the chance to have a word. Bring Reid over, AC and the Burnley captain, have a word, calm him down, the game carries on.

But the ref was not wrong in issuing a second yellow because it was a very heavy and clumsy challenge. Just a shame he didn't think about it for 5 seconds longer.

What disappointed me more than anything is, after weeks of campaigning against diving and cheating in general, Dyche seemed to have a side out there who certainly didn't emulate his words. The way they pressured the ref almost before Andy made contact into sending him off was pretty embarrassing.