Brexit: the next stage. Deal or No Deal? (and the General Election)

IronHerb

claretandbluesky said:

My hope is that Labour make the move to work with the Lib Dems and greens and tactically step aside when necessary to concentrate the anti tory vote in marginal seats and remain voting areas to prevent the tory majority becoming too big. When labour have the best chance a Lab candidate should be the only one of the three and the same for the others. Sadly with no real opposition thanks to corbyn we stand little chance of ousting the Tories so the tactic must be to prevent the majority being too big.

But you can't enter an election letting everyone know you cant win, even if it looks the most likely case.

ASLEFshrugged

claretandbluesky said:

I could not believe he was talking education today as if someone was going to vote on the issue, this is only about brexit and what type of brexit we negotiate.

Wrong, that is what Theresa May wants people to think but this isn't another referendum, this is a General Election and we are electing a parliament. That is why we need to talk about education, the NHS, housing, transport, social care and everything else rather than just focusing on Europe.

claretandbluesky

I wont say you are wrong Aslef but I will disagree with your opinion. I think Brexit is what most people perceive as the lever which will resolve or ruin the things such as Education, NHS and housing etc, for remainers the economy underpins all of them and so if that tanks then those things suffer, some brexiters would claim that immigration causes overload on such things and control of immigration will improve the situation, they also tend claim at least publicly the economy won't tank.

As I have said previously the election will present many voters with difficult choices but I essentially feel that they will vote for who is most likely to deliver the brexit they want as to vote against the party who is going to support your view in that is almost voting to hinder their ability to implement or resist brexit and that issue is dwarfing every other issue as far as I can gather.

OutcastLondoner

I actually think he's right, though it has to be broader than education. I think he's going for the "I'll fight for the ordinary people" stance.

I think any campaign fought by the Labour Party on Brexit will lose. More than a third of Labour voters voted to leave: you potentially lost them by focusing on Brexit but might be able to keep them and win over others with a broader campaign.

MrsGrey

Labour going for a certain demographic with the Home nations saints day national holiday idea. Fair enough. But again, a bit peripheral to the big issues?

ASLEFshrugged

CBS - Brexit is only dwarfing other issues because the media are going along with the Tory agenda of not talking about those other issues. By fixating on Brexit they are able to ignore that austerity is exacerbating decades of neglect and creeping privatisation, the NHS is failing because of Brexit, the NHS has been gradually eroded since 1990 and the Tories aren't going to stop until we have a poor copy of the US private healthcare system.

The Conservatives seem to have little interest in conserving

Mrs Grey - a more useful idea would be making the 8 public holidays we already have paid, at the moment its up to employers whether or not Bank Holidays are taken as part of the 28 days statutory paid leave. Also do we really need any more days off in Spring, we already get 4 of them between March and May, this would put it up to 7 out of 12!

If we're going to change bank holidays move August Bank Holiday back to the first Monday in August where it used to be until 1965 and where it still is in Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. The weather is always better at the start of the August. In fact lets have two August Bank Holidays, one at the start and one at the end. Forget Spring.

MrsGrey

Aslef ;ok

I think it is less the practical issues (ie pay, distribution of hols ) that Labour are hoping will be popular, and more the idea of St Georges Day being a national holiday in England. That will (as I say) play well with a certain demographic that would normally vote Tory. At least, I think that's what they're hoping, and I think the other nations' national day proposal are just an opportunistic add-on.

(Me, cyncical?)

ASLEFshrugged

Mrs G - there are plenty of people in the rest of the UK with Irish connections who would love a day off for Paddy's Day (and maybe the day after to recover.......)

Personally I'd go for 6th November, that way we could all stay up late watching fireworks and not have to go to work the next day plus it would give us a day off between August Bank Holiday and Christmas.

Not that I get Bank Holidays off apart from Christmas and there's rumours they want to reintroduce a Christmas service on the Tube.

The last time we did that was 1979 btw

OutcastLondoner

ASLEFshrugged said:

Personally I'd go for 6th November

Glad you care so much about my birthday.

claretandbluesky

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39698465

This would seem a sensible way to go, he will likely find a way to mess it up but at least he is trying to think outside the box the tories have pushed him into since brexit.

IronHerb

So where is the protection for Brits abroad? The Labour spokesman just said on the BBC, regarding this Euro citizens issue, " if you'r nice to people they will be nice to you" in respect of the EU automatically reciprocating this move.

Naive?

ASLEFshrugged

IronHerb said:

So where is the protection for Brits abroad? The Labour spokesman just said on the BBC, regarding this Euro citizens issue, " if you'r nice to people they will be nice to you" in respect of the EU automatically reciprocating this move.

Naive?

Halfway down the article CBS provided a link to

Guarantee the legal status of the three million EU nationals living in the UK on its first day in office

Press for a reciprocal guarantee for the 1.2 million Britons living on the continent

Its helps if you read the whole thing.

Yeoldhammer

Can't say I agree with that approach in politics. It should be a Mutual agreement by both sides. "the if your nice they will be nice to you" doesn't work in politics.

Vorselaarhammer

As someone who lives abroad but is not aloud to vote, I hope more than expect someone to think of me....

MrsGrey

Vorse, why aren't you allowed to vote? Didn't the '15 year rule' get scrapped?

Vorselaarhammer

Hi Mrs Grey as far as I know not, I did a investigation last time for the Brexit vote.

Has it changed since?? I will have a look. I know there was a petition which I signed to raise this in Parliament.

I am actually now considering moving back just to be able to start voting...

ASLEFshrugged

Yeoldhammer said:

Can't say I agree with that approach in politics. It should be a Mutual agreement by both sides. "the if your nice they will be nice to you" doesn't work in politics.

Whoever is in No.10 after 8 June won't make the decision on the status of UK citizens living in the EU, that decision will be made by the EU countries so there's no point Labour making promises about UK citizens in the EU that they can't keep.

MrsGrey said:

Vorse, why aren't you allowed to vote? Didn't the '15 year rule' get scrapped?

The 15 year rule is still in place

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/21/britons-abroad-denied-uk-general-election-vote-tories

The Tories said they'd scrap it last October but they've not got around to it yet

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/expats-given-vote-for-life-uk-elections-government-says

MrsGrey

Aslef ;ok

I knew it was being scrapped, but had assumed it would have been done by now.

ASLEFshrugged

Mrs G - the wheels of government turn slowly.......

Vorselaarhammer

So annoying, I bought into the idea of living aboard but still contributing to the UK...

IronHerb

Halfway down the article CBS provided a link to

Guarantee the legal status of the three million EU nationals living in the UK on its first day in office

Press for a reciprocal guarantee for the 1.2 million Britons living on the continent

Its helps if you read the whole thing.



You can press as much as you like but when you have already ceded one of your bargaining chips it makes it all the more difficult.

MrsGrey

billybondsbeard said:

I'm not proud of myself though - I swore at a Tory.

;biggrin

NEoldiron

bbb, tactical voting you say ;hmm. Have you seen this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-stop-the-tories_uk_58f89312e4b0cb086d7e4de6

https://www.tactical2017.com/

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Labour are the worst choice IMO, they are still committed to Brexit but their version of it will see us still in everything and contributing but with no say, pulling cap and bending knee saying "thank 'ee kind sir/ma'am" every time they force a decision us - which they will.

The Lib Dems/Greens/SNP if they get the chance will seek to have the A50 activation withdrawn and ignore the wishes of the UK majority, making all sorts of concessions to wheedle their way back in.

Both cases will damage our economy for years to come, as the EU will then manipulate things to get their hands on all the wealth generating industries/business we have left and moving them to other EU countries (read that as France/Germany).
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If we have a weak economy then the NHS, Education and all other public services will suffer, these can only be improved and have more spending from more tax from a strong economy, not by punishing Companies through higher Corporation and other taxes (which will drive them out of the UK), but by increasing tax across the board. This year my Council Tax went up an additional 4%, do I mind? no because it is all going to be spent on social care services in my area, it's only an additional £4.25p a month. I was not bothered about an increase in NI by 1% as it was all for the NHS - a service we all use so should all pay for through NI - and it is not exactly a big rise for most people. To get it scrapped because it broke a manifesto pledge when IMO it is justified as circumstances have change was more despicable than braking the pledge - how often does that happen. Think how many more tens or hundreds of millions would now be available to the NHS budget - sorry for the rant, back to the subject....
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All of these (and some other parties) seem to be wilfully ignorant that Brexit is a two way negotiation and the EU have made their starting point clear on many occasions, so for them to say "we want to keep or maintain this, this and this" without any indication of what they would give up in return (in some cases believing they will not have to make concessions in return - SNP in particular) when the EU have already said "you can't", is frankly a ridiculous position to take and deliberately misleading the voting public.

Like it or not, if you want out of the EU with any sort of Brexit that benefits the UK, TM and the Tories are the only option to get a deal reflecting what the people who voted leave want, hence the reason they will win the GE.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

The Lib Dems/Greens/SNP if they get the chance will seek to have the A50 activation withdrawn and ignore the wishes of the UK majority, making all sorts of concessions to wheedle their way back in.

In the interests of accuracy, let's be clear that a minority - not a majority - of registered voters voted to leave.

Fact.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

I was not bothered about an increase in NI by 1% as it was all for the NHS - a service we all use so should all pay for through NI - and it is not exactly a big rise for most people. To get it scrapped because it broke a manifesto pledge when IMO it is justified as circumstances have change was more despicable than braking the pledge - how often does that happen. Think how many more tens or hundreds of millions would now be available to the NHS budget

Erm, is that ring-fenced, and guaranteed. For ever?

Have you got proof of that?

I don't think so.

The govt hardly ever ring-fence revenue ...





;hmm Maybe it was written on the side of a bus, in which case of course it's a promise. ;wink

epsom_bubbles

I've stayed out of this so far, but something on the news last night, really got my blood boiling. Who the 'heck' does Gina Miller think she is. Whatever your political persuasion, or reasons for voting, they are your choices. Using crowd funding, she has set up a group to educate and guide us 'unwashed' how to best vote in the election. If she wants to affect the outcome then stand for election, or she should mind her own business. Only my opinion mind you

grey_til_I_dye

epsom

I'm not sure that fairly reflects her stated aims or intentions.

As for 'stand for election or shut up' - that doesn't say much for the ideal of a participatory democracy, does it?

ASLEFshrugged

epsom - if Gina Miller stood as a candidate she could only effect one constituency, by campaigning for tactical voting she can effect a lot more.

She's raised over £300k through crowd funding with donations from over 10k people, Arron Banks spent £7.5m of his own money to support Brexit, which is more democratic?

Blair has refused to back Corbyn for Prime Minister, I'm sure Corbyn is relieved...

MrsGrey

epsom_bubbles said:

If she wants to affect the outcome then stand for election, or she should mind her own business.

I have to disagree with you there. Lots of people do stuff to affect the outcomes of elections, other than stand themselves. Armies of campaign workers, fundraisers etc.