Brexit: the next stage. Deal or No Deal? (and the General Election)

MrsGrey

The English language testing requirement is being implemented in the most ridiculous way, imo.

It is inflexible and inappropriate. Almost like they are being drawn up by politicians and bureaucrats, rather than experts. ;wink

SuzanneClaret

Every decision made by Downing Street in the last 72hours is most troubling.

You know there is a massive problem when Sir John Major and Tony Blairs cheif of staff agree.

MrsGrey

ASLEFshrugged said:

y large majorities, the rest aren't going to rock the boat and risk losing their seats.

The current speaker is a Tory, I think the next one has to be Labour by tradition

Bercow staying on ;ok

mike

My wife who worked for the nhs as a senior sister was asked to go to the Philippines and spain to recruit nurses due to the shortages here.It did not matter what qualifications they had because if they didn't have a good command of the english language they were not chosen.

MrsGrey

The issue for me, Mike, is (1) what is judged 'a good command' - which I think should be actually labeled ' a good enough command' in the circumstances of their job, and (2) how is it assessed?

As a separate issue, the rules for non-EU workers have always included an English language requirement. My understanding is that there are new rules applicable to EU workers?

And, in some cases, to UK workers... how's this for a story....

I know someone who is London born and bred. Worked as a bus conductor and (later) bus driver for years. Passed the knowledge, became a black cab driver. Did that for decades. Decided to move over into 'private hire.'

Was told that to get a licence, he'd have to prove his English was good enough. None of his work history was proof of this, they said. And unfortunately, from the list of acceptable qualifications that could be used as evidence, he had none. So he would have to taken (and paid for) a test. And of all the English language testing systems out there, and there are many, only 2 were listed as acceptable (Ielts and Trinity - for those of you that know about this stuff).

IronHerb

But its well known cabbies talk nonsense ;run

MrsGrey

;whome

MunichHammer

MrsG IELTS is quite tricky. Our pediatrician would need to take the academic test and score at least 8 in every single part of the test to be able to work in the UK. And that is as a EU member. She has now given up and works in Switzerland for 3 or 4 days every two weeks, earning a fortune for that little time.

claretandbluesky

Now the dust has began to settle (a little ) after the election I have the same feeling as before which is until brexiters give up their prize the country really has few prospects of anything but treading water until a big shock, related or not hits and sinks us into a whole new way of understanding where we are and adapting to a new standard of living.

I am finding it harder and harder to see any gain for the country from brexit beyond ideological satisfaction. The EU has weathered it's storm of elections and look stronger than ever politically with France feeling optimistic once again and the Franco/German alliance more than ever on the same page. All they need now is an arrogant UK to fail and serve as a warning to these that leave and they will be stronger than before. We have no bargaining power during negotiations and I feel more than ever that in 2 years time people will wonder how we could have self harmed to such a degree in such a short time.

We will likely need agree a large divorce bill before agreeing a worse than current trade deal and so through sheer being unable to admit our stupidity may end up shouting a bit and walking away without a deal. At which point we will be used by EU companies for only the essential things they cannot source within the EU itself, and the take from tax from our financial services industry will be missing as it has its bags packed for Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin.

We already have inflation heading upwards and interest rates doing the same will sink the country as too many do not have the space to cope with them.

Does anyone feel any good news to do with our leaving will come soon and what will it be?

MrsGrey

Madrid ;ok

I've not taught to the IELTS, but am familiar with it. An 8 across all 4 skill areas, and on the academic strand too - you have to question whether that's the best/necessary/only minimum level.

EXETERHAMMER

Appointing Gove as Environment Secretary is appalling. The man is despicable and cannot be trusted on anything.

Laurasupababe

C&B,
I can only see a hard Brexit happening to be honest. The EU have already stated that the UK can not cherry pick which parts of the EU we want to be apart of and I think the reality is they will be looking to make an example of us to deter others from the same course. So we have a choice of a huge divorce bill and a bad trade deal or walking away with no deal which no one in
Parliament will except. Basically we are stuffed.

IronHerb

Well, we haven't actually started negotiating yet so who knows?

Laurasupababe

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Breversal happen ie we stay in. The way things have gone nothing can be ruled out.

MrsGrey

The 'hard Brexit' or maybe 'clean Brexit' would be a better way of describing it only came about as a thing because the UK explicitly ruled out ANY free movement ... there had been talk of various 'half-in' trade/customs arrangements which the EU hadn'r ruled out as long as the UK accepted a compromise on free movement.

Now that Theresa May has made a hash of all that and basically is going into the negotiations with a weakened position (from what was imo already quite a weak base), who knows.

I see that the French President has said the door's still open for a U-turn.

Laurasupababe

Some in Germany feel the same, in which case all is not lost.

PrestonHammer

I voted to leave but a year on, I think we would be better off staying in. This government have made a hash of it so far, there is far too much that needs changing and we will only get our pants pulled down by other countries when it comes to negotiating new trade deals.

However letting in over 300.000 people every year has got to stop and the next government has to get a handle on it.

MrsGrey

Preston, that's at the higher end of the estimate (and doesn't take account of the some additional 120,000 that leave).

And I know we've been through this before, but (whatever the numbers are 'net') ... why has it got to stop?

I haven't heard a convincing (and factually supported) argument why it is a bad thing.

Nor have I heard a convincing (or factually supported) argument of what actual number would be the optimal one: To me, from what I've read, the numbers of what are OK and not OK are quite random. It's just that a big number sounds bad, a smaller number sounds better, and a really small number must, by definition, be the best.

(I'm not expecting you to necessarily try to make the case - as I say, we've been round these houses before - but I'm just reiterating one the reasons why I voted Remain 1st time round: on the 'too many immigrants' argument, nobody succeeded in convincing me ;ok )

PrestonHammer

For me there are far too many people living in the same place, London. They have demolished the old Met Police college and are now building on that. They have demolished the old Newspaper library and have built on that and the old Colindale hospital site is now more housing. I estimate there will now be another 10 to 20.000 more people living right on top of where I am.

I am moving, although that is because I still live at home with my parents and they want to be nearer my sisters kids. I can't afford to buy my own place and I don't fancy house sharing with people I don't know. So we are moving to somewhere just outside Manchester, where hopefully it will be a bit quieter, I hope...hahaha

Some people don't mind living like sardines, I'm not one of them.

MrsGrey

Preston, I got out of London some years back. I like to visit, but it is all a bit overcrowded and chaotic for me for full-time living. I like my periods of peace and tranquillity!

But to your main point: shortage of affordable housing in the South East, linked to over-concentration of jobs and growth in London, a consequence of the move to a service economy...

All things that can be (and should be) tackled ... but for me, the cause isn't too much immigration and the solution isn't stopping immigration.

claretandbluesky

I have always felt we may not leave because in life very few deals are done in which both parties lose, and brexit would definitely be one of those. Due to Dave's disastrous attempt at managing his own party we were left with a political problem of magnitude which was a separation from the EU which would cause devastation yet had been sold to the electorate as a positive thing. Once the lies are seen through which is not quite yet but getting there the environment for a deal may arise in which the EU offer us a significant control of our immigration in return for something else to compensate ( rebate relinquishment perhaps?), then both parties would save face and a new referendum could be called and won, there would be a commotion from the usual right wing press but it would be limited because the more mid ground brexiters will not fancy what was beginning to become a reality.

I do wonder however if as time goes by the EU may fancy us out, if able to share out our financial services industry and make an example of us we may be more use out than in.

My instinct is that the problem with immigration is that our population has grown but austerity did not allow essential public services to be funded at even existing levels let alone grow to accommodate the increased demand. Once people get out of associating tax rises as bad and move to them being associated with better services we can move forward. Corbyns exposure of just how low our corporation tax is compared to the rest of Europe came as a shock to me, surely that is a good place to start raising a few pounds. It could even be structured more like personal tax to shield small and starting businesses. So maybe drop it to 15% under a certain level and then raise to 20% and then finally 25% at the highest rate ( still less than most of Europe). The personal taxation needs moving to 15k to ensure the lowest earners pay less tax and we can play about with rates at the top to bring in the shortfall, whilst it is the working tax credit system which makes us attractive for immigration and that is the biggest job to sort out. But two years spent redesigning our tax and benefit system will yield a lot more than two years spent leaving the EU.

ASLEFshrugged

After Gerald Kaufmann's death Ken Clarke has become the "Father of the House", the oldest MP. Corbyn congratulated him by saying

He seemed to be to be a well established MP when I entered the House 34 years ago. And I've never quite forgotten the image of the member for Rushcliffe in the tea room wearing Hush Puppies, eating bacon sandwiches, drinking super strong lager and carrying a cigar while taking a break from a debate on healthy living

Classic

ASLEFshrugged

Frankie Boyle - UKIP have tried to reposition themselves cos they got they wanted , they got out of the EU. Nobody cares about your other positions, its like hearing about ISIS's position on wheelie bins

mike

MrsGrey ;wave

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
I have asked my wife when interviewing what they judged a good command of english and she said to have a reasonable conversation with someone in english.

She spoke very highly of the Philippian nurses she interviewed saying they spoke very good english,were highly qualified and were hard workers.

MrsGrey

Mike ;ok

That's interesting. So they weren't required to have formal language qualifications?

;hmm I don't think that can be right, because they would need a visa, and the Home Office has language requirements that are linked to actual exams and certificates and stuff. Maybe the interviewing your wife did was to select nurses they wanted to employ, and all the 'official' stuff came after.

(Thinking aloud ;biggrin )

mike

MrsGrey

They had to take about six written tests before they even got to the interview and it was very strict
When i said about qualifications i was talking about nursing not language qualifications and even if they had passed the interview they would still have had to get an home office visa before they left their country.
The answer is yes they did have to have language qualifications.

MrsGrey

Cheers ;ok

ASLEFshrugged

The State Opening of Parliament was due to take place next Monday which coincided with the Order of the Garter Ceremony at Windsor, an event that the Queen apparently enjoys and she was less than happy when she had to cancel that in order to give the Queen's Speech.

Its now been announced that the State Opening will be next Wednesday but Royal Ascot starts on Tuesday and rumours are that the Queen is in no mood to miss any of the racing.

If she doesn't turn up to the State Opening then the Lord Chancellor David Livington will have to give the Queen's Speech.

He was appointed to the job on Sunday.

IronHerb

Wish I could go to the races instead of going to work.

Laurasupababe

ASLEF,
It's a hard life.....reading a speech or going to the races ;doh