The 'couldn't think where else to put this' and decided it didn't merit a new thread thread
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Comments
I had a quick google, but all I could find were a couple of places where police cuts have meant that the police won't be providing security this year. So it is a possibility that unless the local organisers can sort out their own security/marshalls, the ceremony will have to be changed. In particular, the idea of closing the roads to have a procession through the town might not happen.
They could still have a wreath-laying ceremony at the war memorial. ;hmm
Poppies on shirts had nothing to do with my post and so your reference to the DM is therefore irrelevant.
I must be living in some kind of bubble as I can't see where this "nationalist emotional blackmail" is nor any "bigotry". I suppose it comes down to what significance the Remembrance commemorations has to the individual. All the junior clubs locally have had their kick off times altered so every club can pay their respects. ;ok
The Remembrance Day ceremonies is one thing (of which poppies have always been a part, since it was adopted at the symbol of remembrance initially of those 'on our side' who died on the Western Front in WW1, but later in WW1 as a whole).
The other is the individual wearing of the poppy symbol. This is what (I thought) Aslef was referring to.
The latter came about because the Royal British Legion's November fundraising campaign gave you ... if you put some money in a collection box ... a little poppy 'badge' to pin to your lapel to show you had donated to that particular charity. Like getting a daffodil if you chuck a few coins in the Marie Curie street collection.
I agree with Aslef that now, the wearing of a poppy has become almost mandatory (in the court of popular public opinion) unless you want to be judged anti-patriotic.
Just look at the whole furore over James McClean.
I won't wear one - it has become symbolic of something much bigger and wider than 'remembrance'. And I don't buy into that or want to be associated with it.
I mean, if someone isn't wearing a daffodil pin in March (when Marie Curie Great Daffodil Appeal takes place)... what conclusions might we draw about that person?
Now substitute poppy for daffodil and March for November ....
I certainly do not judge anyone who is not wearing one, there are many reasons why someone may not be wearing one, not least of which may be that it may have simply fallen off, and just because I have given support to a charity, I may justifiably choose not to wear a badge symbolizing to the world that I have done so.
However - I do believe that the poppy is an appropriate and instantly recognizable symbol of rememberence and it remains extremely meaningful to those for whom rememberence is personally important.
I do wish they had not gone to the extent of putting the poppy on every football shirt- however, I think it reasonable that each team should host a brief ceremony and a minutes silence at an appropriate time closest to the established rememberence weekend.
It is about paying respect and it really is appropriate, at least in my opinion, that the current and future generations, remember the sacrifice of those who went before us.
Once again in my opinion, War is mostly avoidable and will always be regrettable, however, I find it hard to come to any other conclusion than the rising up of the free world to overcome facism and imperialism in WW2 was one war where the sacrifice was great, but totally just, and we have a duty to remember them.
;poppy
I think that's the problem.
The poppy is a powerful symbol, but its symbolism has developed several levels.
Imagine what would happen if one of the Sky pundits in the studio was seen not to be wearing a poppy when all the others were. (Or, as MrsG said, see how much grief James McClean gets each year.) In a perfect world, it would be nothing. It's a free country, a free choice, and no one should have to adopt a symbol if they choose not to, and there should be no social consequences.
But I'm pretty sure there would be outrage among certain sections of the community, and that, for me, is wrong.
For example...
A huge fuss about whether or not Corbyn would wear a red poppy at his 1st Rememrance day service as Leader of the Opposition - pressure was put on him by the PLP etc. Quote from article below 'The wearing of the red poppy is the ultimate celebration of Britishness.' That is not an uncommon opinion. (Edit - NOT ;doh )
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11947452/Does-Jeremy-Corbyn-have-any-idea-what-Poppy-Day-is-about.html
ITV newsreader lambasted for not wearing one while reading the news http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2505791/Charlene-White-ITV-news-suffered-racist-abuse-wearing-Remembrance-Day-poppy.html
Comments besides the racism include things like 'you aren't fit to sit in front of the British people'.
When Siena Miller didn't wear one on the Graham Norton Show... cue outrage and insults, widely covered in the press. 'Even former Conservative defence minister Sir Gerald Howarth waded in, telling the Sun there should “be no excuse for not wearing one so we can honour the war dead.”'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sienna-miller-criticised-for-not-wearing-a-poppy-on-graham-norton-show-a6717036.html
Comments like 'shame on her' and 'she shouldn't be allowed on the show'.
Surely the fact that people are free to make the decision as to whether they wear the poppy or not is one of the important examples of why we remember in the first place.
James Corbyn may choose not to wear one when walking his dog but I do think it odd that he would choose not to do so when actually attending a remembrance service when in his pubic role as leader of a significant political party.
Likewise a newsreader when in their role as a front person for their network.
To choose not to wear one in such circumstances does not, in my opinion, constitute in itself a slap in the face of those who fought, but strikes me as a selfish “look at me” action.
My assumption is that the vast majority of people from all walks of life truly do recognize the sacrifice given by those who fought for our current freedoms and I struggle to understand the objection.
The difference with the “taking the knee” action here in the states, is that it is an attempt to highlight that all is not well with current society, that the shining city on the hill is pretty tarnished when you get up close, the idea being that action highlighting the fact just may result in actions being taken by those in authority to make things better
Just my tuppence worth
;ok
The first part of your post, above, again seems to me to raise the issue of poppies used in wreaths etc at Armistice Day ceremonies, and those pinned to the lapel to show you support the RBL Poppy Appeal. The line has imo become blurred.
Finally, I think it absolutely wrong to expect or require anyone to wear a symbol when 'representing an institution'. So I disagree with you fundamentally on your first sentence. That's rather where + why the debate started
I can't see that there is anything to suggest that those who do not wear poppies put any less value on the sacrifice made by men and women of the services or that the wearing of one proves that the wearer is sincere in those feelings.
Wearing a poppy used to be one way of marking respect. Now, it seems that failing to wear one suggests a lack of respect, and I think that devalues its symbolism.
My point is when an institution makes a reasonable request, key word, reasonable, and you choose not to do so, then it is you that is making the statement, many institutions require you to wear a symbol, be it a badge, a company logo, uniform or at least abide to a dress code.
The idea behind those symbols is that as a representative of the organization, it is beholden upon you to behave in a manner that represents the values of that organization.
Note that reasonable is my bar. It would not be reasonable for an institution to ask you to reflect support for topics that are widely considered to be strongly held personal beliefs, such as abortion rights, capital punishment or religion
Extreme examples to be sure but a West Ham player cannot assert their freedom and rights and insist to play in a red shirt, no soldier can appear on parade in business casual etc etc.
So the newreader in question, in my mind did choose to make the issue all about her and turned it into a “look at me” moment because in my mind, the request to wear a poppy as a front person on a national network channel is a reasonable one as, once again, I operaate under the impression that the general population do support the fallen, even if they choose not to wear a symbolic poppy, and the notion of remembrance will also presumably be core to that organizations values
The example of Sienna Miller is very different as she was appearing as an individual on a late night talk show and as such should be able to do so without wearing a poppy and be free of any disapproving comments.
My tuppence has turned into sixpence
;ok
On the matter of dress codes, logos on unforms etc, I don't see that as the same thing at all. And so I must (sadly) dispute that a request to wear a poppy symbol is 'reasonable'. I actually think it is unreasonable.
And as an addition to your point referencing 'strongly held personal beliefs' .... I think it quite evident that many people have strongly held personal beliefs which lead them to reject the poppy, but still respect the sacrifice of those who were killed in the service of their country. See James MacClean, https://www.wiganathletic.com/news/2014/november/statement-regarding-james-mcclean/ Harry Leslie Smith (WW2 Raf vet), https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith
Ben Griffin (ex SAS/Para)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/never-again-anti-war-veterans-to-carry-white-poppy-wreath-to-cenotaph-9833246.html
Anyone know if this is a legit site for buying shirts? Maybe there is a catch like fifty quid postage but cant see it
Says free UK delivery on orders over £42.
BUT - I can't find out where they ship from. You could be looking at having to pay customs charges on top of that....
Also none of their 'follow us' buttons link to any social media accounts.
;hmm id stay clear personally
People need to remind themselves of simple safety rules.
Bloke you don't know in a pub offers you a good deal on a phone, only 50 quid.
Give him the money and he'll bring you the phone tomorrow.
No one would do it.
Same bloke on Facebook...
Was watching WWE at Brighton on Thursday night. Who here knows HHH?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41878954
I’m loving the 606 Twitter feed ;lol