Moyes In or Moyes Out

Fortuneseeker

Slacker, Probably because I think a new manager could because David Moyes has a history of having a detrimental affect on players careers whilst they are with us. Haller, Vlasic & Anderson are a few who immediately come to mind. They leave & are better for the move. 👍

Fortuneseeker

MrsG, Scamacca & Paqueta are two top players who David Moyes should be able to get playing better for us. I agree a new manager would ask for some new players but he would already have a good basis to start from.

OldCastleSwift

Slacker said:

OldCastleSwift said:

Spending a fortune isn't the problem. Other clubs spend a fortune but spend it wisely. Other clubs spent aot less but still get the majority right.

I really don’t remember you complaining about the quality and quantity of the players brought in last summer, quite the opposite in fact.

Absolutely. I was happy with who we signed. Because I think they're good footballers. But are they right for Moyes’s West Ham? Evidence so far would suggest not.

Felipe Anderson is a good footballer, but didn't work at West Ham. Haller was exceptional at Frankfurt and Ajax either side of playing for West Ham, but is seen as a bad signing for us. Paqueta and Scamacca came with very good reputations and international standing, but have been largely underwhelming for us.

I honestly don't care how much we spend each window; what I care about is signing the right players - whether they cost £50m or £50k - which we don't seem to be doing often enough.

But to repeat, our transfer dealings have nothing to do with what I was talking about. It is our ability (or lack of) to identify and recruit a manager capable of improving our form, league position and standard of football that concerns me.

Yeoldhammer

OldCastleSwift said:

Spending a fortune isn't the problem. Other clubs spend a fortune but spend it wisely. Other clubs spent aot less but still get the majority right.

Both Pellegrini and Moyes spent money on players that didn't seem to suit the club or the league; that says more about our recruitment infrastructure and how the club goes about its business more than anything else.

Scamacca was his biggest mistake, if you want to play possession based football you need a willing runner across the opposition back line, Scamacca isn't a runner. He plays deep which forces everyone to take several steps back, and opposition defenders know if he wants to play on the shoulder they will have the 5 yards of pace to cover back in time.

From that mistake Paqueta's role becomes less influential.

If he wants to play big tall striker up top he needs a player alongside him.

chicagohammer

For me, he has to stay until we find someone to replace him, lets get the right person, I do not support the notion that he has to go after such and such a game.

I am hoping that they are looking earnestly for a replacement as I think the time has come, but in the meantime, he has to stay and make good of what we have and where we are - and if he can rescue us, and himself, I will be good with that

Bazshuayi

Is there anything to suggest that Moyes will magically pull out some tactical flexibility or formation to transform us? We dont make many good chances and we dont score often We, despite being set up to be hard to beat, get beat too often.

It would be nice to see Scamacca, Benni and Cornet as a front three but injury has seen that be waited for. We'd have Bowen and Antonio to mix and match too. Creatively, maybe Paqueta and some wing backs may create for them, who knows.

A new manager would certainly inherit a core of good players. Whilst I dont have the answers on who the best replacement is, I do believe that many, many managers couldn't do worse than someone who has managed the same way for far too many years and is at that point where a modern manager surely wouldnt find it hard to be tactically more astute and flexible (rather than the same old same old that every other manager in the league anticipates and expects from us)

Bazshuayi

p.s. We could play Antonio and Scamacca up front. We could play Benni and Paqueta behind the striker. We could play....

Its not been working for a long time, not just 10 or even 20 games. Nothing seems to change

Kuchinghammer

Moyes seems close to his Sunderland days, carrying a cloud of gloom around that spreads to the players and coaching staff. A new manager who brings a fresh, positive attitude would break this cycle of despondency. Reluctantly, the club and David Moyes need to part ways. But find a replacement first.

MrsGrey

Ocs, re the first bit of your post. Thanks for clarifying. I hadn't realised you were just focusing on the last transfer window :-)

Lukerz

My worry - and I still stick by what I said the other week, I won’t call for his sacking - is that there is no improvement in performance levels. Back in October, we went on a little run where we got ourselves into the top 10 briefly, yet since the defeat to Palace, we have had absolutely 0 improvement in overall performance. There have been no real solutions to issues, no permanent tactical/formation tweaks & no alternative player selection for a period of time (trying Paqueta & Rice as a two for one match, then reverting to type/dropping Soucek for one game, then reverting to type).

I am happy to give Moyes until the season ends based on his experience & track record for us, but it’s not my money in the club. If I was an owner, watching this currently, with money in the club, I’d be making a change.

thornburyiron

It’s been said often that Scamacca and Paqueta are not performing or are the wrong players but maybe it’s the players around them who are wrong. They are probably expecting more movement or anticipation from the team that they are used to at their previous clubs or international teams.
We all know that Antonio has no football brain whatsoever and that we are hopeless at crossing the ball but I bet they didn’t expect that when they signed.
We lost two of our new signings at the start, one of whom has just come back and the other has vanished.
Something needs to drastically change and quickly but getting rid of Moyes now won’t solve it. If the coaching team go too who is there to take training. Do we actually have a forward coach at the club and what exactly has Warburton added to the set up.

OldCastleSwift

Respect your position Lukerz, but are you saying that you'd accept relegation under Moyes through loyalty for what he's done in the past? Fair enough if so, just trying to get my head around how you say you have concerns that nothing has changed and there's been no improvement, but you're happy for that to continue? Or do you genuinely believe he can and will turn it around?

Hamstew

The guys is just weird imo. The whole Benrahma thing when he's clearly our most in form player. Constantly playing a poor Soucek. Downes got a small run in the team and looked good imo and then he's hardly been seen again.

PrestonHammer

I want him to do well but I think it's wishful thinking he will turn it around. We look bereft of ideas. We've looked like that for 12 months and I think it's time for a change.

Hamstew

I'd also like to know if anyone actually thinks it's enjoyable to watch us. I was actually sitting there yesterday drifting off. My 10 year old who usually watches games played his Xbox instead. It's horrendous football even when you take the results away.

jay_in_cpt

This is like not been coming for a few weeks , this is now over a calendar year of very abject performances with little to show he has what it takes to turn it around.
Moyes has spent lots of money and at the end of the day his tactics are simply not working.
Players are losing their form, nearly all of them… This is no coincidence, this is down to him and his coaching staff…
If we stay with Moyes we IMO will be relegated, if we stay with him and stay up it will be down to there are simply 3 teams even worse than us….

I don’t know who could come in and replace him, that’s not my job to do, but i just feel that we’ve seen enough of these horrendous games were we are always looking 2nd best and he’s now had more than enough time to work it out, let’s all be real, this hasn’t just been a few months this has been over a year now, far too long to think differently.

Seems like Stuart Pearce leaving has possibly had an affect? And I’ll put it out there, Declan Rice is a great player, no debate, but is he a great captain?

IMO The owners need to be strong here and make the call now, there is enough talent in that squad for a new coach to work with and get more out of them than Moyes is or has been doing for a long time now..
Really hope he’s gone in the next day or so..

Lukerz

OldCastleSwift said:

Respect your position Lukerz, but are you saying that you'd accept relegation under Moyes through loyalty for what he's done in the past? Fair enough if so, just trying to get my head around how you say you have concerns that nothing has changed and there's been no improvement, but you're happy for that to continue? Or do you genuinely believe he can and will turn it around?

If the owners were prepared to do a Villa, as in go & buy a decent manager out of his current contract, I’d be open to the change. But it will be Rafa or Dyche (I’d imagine). In which case, I don’t think the risk is worth taking, when we already have Moyes & his coaching staff. The players are aware of his methods & style & they have brought relative success in the last 2 years. I think guiding us to 6th & 7th, regardless of our form in 2022, is worth some credit in the bank.

If the owners have a list of potential outstanding candidates, like Villa do & like Brighton do, then fine. But what will be pointless is sacking Moyes to go & pick somebody up off the ‘out of work’ market.

We’re not scoring goals & that is always the sign of a side destined for relegation. Defending can be taught & practised but if you can’t score goals, you don’t get 3 points.1 goal v Palace, Leicester, Brentford, Wolves (3 at home). Even that was a 25 yarder. That is appalling.

jay_in_cpt

I really don’t buy this “ credit in the bank “sorry Luke, but You are entitled to your own opinion 👍🏻

This was taken from “Hammers News” horrible reading:
West Ham must win seven of their remaining 19 games to stay up. That is no easy task when you have only won four of your last 19 and worse still just 13 of your last 46 league matches.

Goals win games and the Hammers have scored a pathetic 15 of them in 19 league matches so far this season. The team is also sorely lacking pace – a key commodity in the Premier League.

Lukerz

I don’t mean he gets a free pass regardless. It’s a results business. I mean it’s more evidence of his ability as a manager. So I wonder if he has hit a wall now & become a bad manager overnight or is it a teething issue that could still come good.

jay_in_cpt

Lukerz said:

I don’t mean he gets a free pass regardless. It’s a results business. I mean it’s more evidence of his ability as a manager. So I wonder if he has hit a wall now & become a bad manager overnight or is it a teething issue that could still come good.

If it was a teething issue he’d be toothless 🤣

Fortuneseeker

David Sullivan & Daniel Kretinsky don't want their asset losing a considerable amount of its value by us being relegated. DS is looking to sell, if the reports are to be believed, so he will want us to survive. It's a great shame that our next match is the first after David Gold passed away & tributes are to be paid to him but I can see it being toxic with the state of the team at the moment.

buffybegood

Fortuneseeker said:

It's a great shame that our next match is the first after David Gold passed away & tributes are to be paid to him but I can see it being toxic with the state of the team at the moment.

I'm not sure it will be bad; obviously everyone is hugely disappointed with how we're performing, but vitriol is usually aimed at the board and, fair play to them, they did put their hands in their pockets in the summer. I'm not saying there won't be boos if we lose, but I don't think it will be a toxic atmosphere, and certainly nothing like how things were a couple of years ago.

IronHerb

I keep reading about "it's going to be a toxic atmosphere" since covid but it still hasn't happened.

jay_in_cpt

In general I think at present the fault lies with the manager ( and of course the players for not performing to their ability ) but far less our owners including the late David Gold, like said above they have splashed the cash...

Fortuneseeker

OK, Lets see what happens if we go behind? I really want what is best for the club but how long can we go on like it has been for the past year.

Didn't Claudio Ranieri win the Premier League with Leicester in May 2016 he was sacked the following February! I reckon his credit was higher than David Moyes.

BubblesNeverDies

Different managers (and presumably different tactics), same group of players, different results.
Who's to say that it couldn't work for us, provided of course we find the right manager.

MrsGrey

Don't forget the different opponents.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

I don’t mean he gets a free pass regardless. It’s a results business. I mean it’s more evidence of his ability as a manager. So I wonder if he has hit a wall now & become a bad manager overnight or is it a teething issue that could still come good.

Some would argue that he's been on the decline for years and the two good seasons with us were the blip, rather than the current form.

Post-Everton success 10+ years ago, he struggled at Utd (not the only one to do so post-Ferguson, to be fair), struggled in Spain before getting sacked and then oversaw relegation with Sunderland.

I don't think he was considered a good manager prior to us hiring him both times, but his stock certainly rose over the last two seasons. But we seem to now be in Sunderland territory and I have zero confidence that he can turn it around. Teething issues shouldn't exist in his third full season with us, IMO, and our form has been bad for over a year now. This doesn't feel like a blip to me; it feels terminal.

Fortuneseeker

BND, You posted about the improvement at Aston Villa since Emery came in so there is good data to indicate that a change may be for the best. 👍

IronHerb

So he's beaten Everton and West Ham. He also won one in seven La Liga games at Seville and left them at or near the bottom of the league.