Silke Smooth Irons away to Man Utd

OldCastleSwift

Top, top statting alderz.

alderz said:

That website is quite interesting, btw. And there are two other things that I think are worth pointing out from there.

Firstly, this is a map of where we control possession. Blue means we are dominant in those zones, and red means the other side are. You can see quite clearly how we are effective attackers down the left, but we are vulnerable down our right - which is something I've heard a lot recently.

I think this tallies with what I've seen this season; we knock the ball around quite nicely in our defensive third, but have really struggled any further forward than that.

Slacker

Fine margins this soccerball malarkey innit?
If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics.
Just goes to show how much difference a goal or two makes.

Fortuneseeker

Not wanting to come over "all Spursy" , & I know we won both our last two home games, but I wasn't particular enthused in the way the team played. We laboured in those matches and teams now set up to nullify the counter attack option which worked so well when we had Lingard on loan. Hopefully it's just as phase and when Paqueta is back, the team is settled, it will mean Scamacca can flourish and all will be good.

buffybegood

I do think Scamacca and Paqueta seemed to be building a good understanding, and Paqueta will certainly be given license to get forward so I think we'll have a better chance of breaking other teams down once he's back.

alderz

Slacker said:

Fine margins this soccerball malarkey innit?
If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics.
Just goes to show how much difference a goal or two makes.

It is fine margins, and obviously goals make a difference. Brighton are brilliant but almost never score, so when they do they look a lot better than when they don't.

Personally, I have found us boring to watch for a long time, but when we win it doesn't matter quite as much to me. When we are boring, and failing to get results, then I question why we don't try to be more attacking - particularly when I see us create plenty when we actually do take the game to the opposition (i.e. the final 20 against Liverpool and Man Utd).

steve

Cornet is another option we need to get back

alderz

Slacker said:

If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics..

Also, I'm not sure this is true. What I see happen a lot is that we win a game, then some people say "we didn't play very well" or are critical of our approaches, and then others respond to say "we won, what more do you want?" or words to that effect.

OldCastleSwift

alderz said:

Slacker said:

If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics..

Also, I'm not sure this is true. What I see happen a lot is that we win a game, then some people say "we didn't play very well" or are critical of our approaches, and then others respond to say "we won, what more do you want?" or words to that effect.

Yeah, it's far too simplistic to say that fans are happy with a performance if we win and unhappy if we don't.

We won against Bournemouth and Silkeborg, but both performances were pretty insipid, IMO. The latter in particular was painful to watch and plenty of people said as much across social media. So yeah, the three points were the most important thing in both games, but I don't think we played well in either game.

And it works the other way, too. Sometimes a team can put in an incredible performance and still lose, and fans have been unhappy with the result but the performance can't be faulted.

IronHerb

alderz said:

Slacker said:

If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics..

Also, I'm not sure this is true. What I see happen a lot is that we win a game, then some people say "we didn't play very well" or are critical of our approaches, and then others respond to say "we won, what more do you want?" or words to that effect.

Can't say I recognise the 'we won, what more do you want? or words to that effect' element at all.

chicagohammer

I understand that results and points are obviously critical but that does not mean that the result should be the be all and end all, yesterday, I was feeling really frustrated at the hour mark and I doubt that feeling would have been eliminated had we had snuck a result.

Funnily enough, was chatting with my brother last night and commented that I doubt that the United fans, whilst grateful for the points, would have felt that comfortable with their performance.

alderz

IronHerb said:

alderz said:

Slacker said:

If we had won that game yesterday ( which as previously stated we could well have done if not for DeGea’s brilliant saves and Maguire’s ankle) I seriously doubt that the debate about “ negative football “ would be happening here and elsewhere. In fact Moyes would probably be praised for employing spot on tactics..

Also, I'm not sure this is true. What I see happen a lot is that we win a game, then some people say "we didn't play very well" or are critical of our approaches, and then others respond to say "we won, what more do you want?" or words to that effect.

Can't say I recognise the 'we won, what more do you want? or words to that effect' element at all.

That’s fair if you haven’t

IronHerb

What does that mean?

alderz

IronHerb said:

What does that mean?

Just that it's fair enough if you haven't recognised it

MrsGrey

alderz said:

The XG thing is really interesting to me. In terms of Open Play XG, we are 11th, and we are 7th for Set Piece XG (according to theanalyst.com). But according to the same data, we've had the sixth most shots of all PL sides - 176.

What this means, is that we are having a lot of very low % efforts on goal - i.e. we are not creating "good" chances. And to illustrate the point, our XG per shot being 0.08 means we have to take nearly 12 shots to get to 1.0 XG.

Highest shot takers ,= Bowen and Benrahma.
Followed by Soucek.

Then Rice and Antonio ( tied in 3rd place).

Data from whoscored.

Ravel49

🗣️ calling out Ham, calling out the Clown, calling out the man that hates palace more than anyone will know, calling out the man who despises Zaha FC

Match thread 😘

🦅 🪓

MrsGrey

Alderz, did you revive your stat blog in the end? That you were thinking of?

alderz

MrsGrey said:

Alderz, did you revive your stat blog in the end? That you were thinking of?

I did a couple of blog posts, but I haven’t felt motivated to do it at all since then. I decided I only want to do it when the mood strikes me, rather than force myself.

MrsGrey

Of course :-)

Will you post a link, when you do a new one? I enjoy looking at them.

I was just thinking how your recent statattack could be the basis for an interesting analysis

And of course has relevance for your previous Cresswell one.

Have you ever thought about revisiting an old blog and doing a follow up?

If inspiration strikes, of course!!

alderz

MrsGrey said:

Of course :-)

Will you post a link, when you do a new one? I enjoy looking at them.

I was just thinking how your recent statattack could be the basis for an interesting analysis

And of course has relevance for your previous Cresswell one.

Have you ever thought about revisiting an old blog and doing a follow up?

If inspiration strikes, of course!!

I’ve not thought about revisiting so much, because the old ones are SO old. But I could relook at Cresswell and Soucek over the winter break maybe. I had also thought about looking at how some of the signings had settled at some point.

And yes, of course I’ll share them if I ever do any more!

Bazshuayi

Yes its nice to win and be at the right end of the table etc.

I dont know if its the veteran supporter in me but I want more than that. I still want Moyes out because of the brand of football we attempt to play. Even if we had won at Old Trafford, I'd still feel the same. Our football is painful to watch most of the time and, good result or not, I can rewind to the past and know we at least played attacking football (and that was one of the main catalysts to liking West Ham back in the day)

Slacker

Baz your right of course about playing attractive football in years gone by. I don’t know how far you go back but I can remember the Greenwood era very well when we did play some great stuff but man did we get some mullerings. I can tell you for certain that there were many many fans who wanted Greenwood out, the same went for Lyall.
Fortunately the board stood firm and we had the glory years of the 60’s and 80’s.
My main point is that if we were winning regularly most fans would it give a monkey’s, so IMO you’re in a minority when you say you want attractive football and are not that bothered about results.
It’s not just West Ham of course, just look what happened at Leeds.
The gold standard is obviously wonderful football and winning matches and trophies but not many (City?Liverpool?) have managed that recently.

Slacker

https://www.kumb.com/article.php?id=44423&fbclid=IwAR0a2U_nTWswbc1SROTuzwrxgd6pBsdcCrvlDmK6tgAJNnOYdJXFwIgSAeA
Pretty much my take.

alderz

For me, that KUMB article mischaracterises a lot of what people are actually saying. I don't think I've personally seen anyone say (though I must admit I only really look on here) that we should be 4-4-2 gung ho attack away at the big boys, as the article suggests. What I have seen is people say that passive performances with a "good old try" in the last 10 is pointless if you lose anyway. We are far better than we set up as against the big clubs, IMO, and we need to club to shift its mentality. Personally, I don't want Moyes to be sacked, he's the best manager we've had in my lifetime. I believe he's capable of taking us to the next level, but he needs to unshackle the side - and himself - to make that happen, IMO.

Bazshuayi

Attractive football isnt the be all and end all for me but it has an importance too. I just want us to attempt it and if we get periodic mullerings, as Slacker says, then fair enough. I do not believe for one second that Moyes will change his management style or even that he's capable of doing so

OutcastLondoner

Attractive football is important because ultimately most of us know we won't always get the results. It's nice when those successful periods come but I think you'd have to be deluded to expect that. You have to derive enjoyment from something and the most realistic way to get that is through positive football.

I also think it's misleading that the call for positive football is often treated as in opposition to results. Playing super cautiously has never actually really got us results. It got us through the Championship with Allardyce and maybe kept us up a few seasons.

But the best success we had with Allardyce were a few periods of actually quite fast-paced, aggressive football where we moved forward with a lot of intent. The same was true with Moyes from the lockdown resumption until the beginning of this calendar year.

If we were playing deep and then breaking with a lot of intent, I think people would have very different opinions of the football we're playing. We're not doing that.

Being critical of the choices Moyes makes does not equal wanting Moyes out. I personally am frustrated with some of his recent decisions because I want him to stay but think what he's doing now will only build pressure. I don't see an alternative to him. I don't want a manager who might be good for a season or two then leave for a bigger club.

I think that quote from Moyes about people wanting to win the big 6 games more than others is the opposite of what's true. People want to approach *most* of them, as we would approach other games. It's Moyes putting extra importance on them and setting up in special ways that have actually not yielded much result when the reality is most of that top 6 isn't actually that good anymore.

Lukerz

And, ultimately, Moyes talks about challenging the top four. You don’t challenge the top four if you lose to everybody in the top 6.

Lukerz

It comes down to the quality of our play. I, personally, don’t think we did a lot wrong at Liverpool & Man Utd. We defended well, kept possession at times, counter-attacked, built play, pressed at times & this resulted in a very close couple of games where we really should’ve walked away with a 1-1 draw from both. Moyes can do lots of things but decision making in the final third & finishing are not things he can directly control. It’s always a fine line between showing attacking intent & then being opened up & 2-0 down within 25 minutes (not saying that would happen, but it could). We all know it’s not as simple as going 4-4-2 & pressing the ‘attack’ button. There is a balance that needs to be struck to ensure the game is there for us.

What I do think we could do is push up the pitch more (we sit too deep) & engage in pressing more regularly when the ball is in the middle third. I find we engage in a press when the oppositions defence have the ball, trying to pinch it high, but once it moves into midfield we sit back & retreat into the defensive third. We can all talk about going from defence to attack quicker but the movement has to be there & quality of pass for us to move through the lines. If nobody gives Zouma an option, he’s going to pass to Kehrer or Dawson. If nobody gives them an option, they’re going to go back to Fab.