Discussion of 'taking the knee' and related ideas

BubblesNeverDies

MrsGrey

I read it, and have to disagree that it was 'worth' it.

So are you saying that any view/opinion that differs from yours is not worth reading7hearing?

OutcastLondoner

BubblesNeverDies said:

This is worth reading.

https://unherd.com/thepost/dont-dismiss-the-booers-as-bigots/?mc_cid=ec88bebeb2&mc_eid=735486601a

I personally disagree. Lots of straw men. The same points made by people who want to win arguments rather than solve problems - and I’ll admit there are other arguments made by people on the other side. Usually few of the people arguing are actually affected.

The gesture on the pitch is focused around a basic idea but not everyone has the same approach to achieving that goal. The simple issue, in my opinion, is that people booing aren’t comfortable with being confronted. We for a long time created a situation where people are more offended about someone being called racist than about racism itself.

claretandbluesky

I think the clubs and players have to reject them with a please don't come statement and we don't want you at our club. Football fans are very tribal so to be rejected by the focal point for their supporting identity will send a clear message. I think it was Fred Perry the clothing company which was adopted by the proud boys right wing group in the US and came out with a statements of we don't want anything to do with you and and would rather you didn't wear our t-shirts. England, West Ham, whoever, just say if you intend Boo, if that's who you are then you are welcome to your view but we would prefer you didn't come as we don't want you here associating with us.

MrsGrey

BubblesNeverDies said:

MrsGrey

I read it, and have to disagree that it was 'worth' it.

So are you saying that any view/opinion that differs from yours is not worth reading7hearing?

No.

ASLEFshrugged

Paul Embery claims the people booing "aren’t, for the most part, opposing the message" but then says the players and the media at large are "Battering them incessantly with a message".

So they not booing the message but rather that they've seen and heard it too many times before? And how does he know, has he talked to those booing and asked them why they're doing it?

I suspect UnHerd has a specific target audience and I don't think I'm part of it

Meanwhile Dudley MP Marco Longhi has denied the booing was racist and that fans simply wanted to watch football "without having the agenda of a Marxist supporting organisation rammed down their throats by overpaid prima donnas".

There's the M-word again and as with Embery has he talked to those booing?

BubblesNeverDies

ASLEF

So they not booing the message but rather that they've seen and heard it too many times before? And how does he know, has he talked to those booing and asked them why they're doing it?

Of course it's a generalisation, but isn't that the same logic as claiming that everyone booing an anti-racist gesture must therefore be racist themselves?

alderz

BubblesNeverDies said:

ASLEF

So they not booing the message but rather that they've seen and heard it too many times before? And how does he know, has he talked to those booing and asked them why they're doing it?

Of course it's a generalisation, but isn't that the same logic as claiming that everyone booing an anti-racist gesture must therefore be racist themselves?

It’s not the same logic at all

IronHerb

alderz said:

BubblesNeverDies said:

ASLEF

So they not booing the message but rather that they've seen and heard it too many times before? And how does he know, has he talked to those booing and asked them why they're doing it?

Of course it's a generalisation, but isn't that the same logic as claiming that everyone booing an anti-racist gesture must therefore be racist themselves?

It’s not the same logic at all

But it appears to be being interpreted that way by some

BubblesNeverDies

How does he know, has he talked to those booing and asked them why they're doing it?

Claiming that everyone booing an anti-racist gesture must therefore be racist themselves

To me the logic is the same, except the first challenges a generalisation, and the second accepts a generalisation.

BubblesNeverDies

MrsGrey said:

BubblesNeverDies said:

MrsGrey

I read it, and have to disagree that it was 'worth' it.

So are you saying that any view/opinion that differs from yours is not worth reading7hearing?

No.

That's what I call a terse, succinct. laconic reply.

nychammer66

I think it’s become a bit pretentious, and I have a feeling that most of the players doing it do so because of what others will think if they don’t. Maybe we could have one big ‘knee down’ at the euros and then move on.

alderz

nychammer66 said:

I think it’s become a bit pretentious, and I have a feeling that most of the players doing it do so because of what others will think if they don’t. Maybe we could have one big ‘knee down’ at the euros and then move on.

If the point is that the players want to raise awareness that racism continues to be an issue, then doing “one big knee down” at the Euros would need to coincide with people stopping being racist.

I don’t understand why this is the hill people are choosing to die on.

ASLEFshrugged

Maybe some of the people booing are not racists but I don't think there can be any argument that some of the people booing are racists.

The problem is that it is hard to tell the difference between racist and non-racist booing and the louder the booing, regardless of context, the more it will make the racists feel they are supported in their racism.

One thing I noticed is there seemed to be a lot more clapping for the players taking the knee at the Romania game than at the Austria game so maybe when they take the knee on Sunday the clapping will drown out the boos.

Kuchinghammer

I stayed out of Brexit arguments because I don't live in Britain any more, and politics are toxic today. But I've spent my whole life as a minority (sometimes as a ruling minority, mostly as an outsider) I have two comments, and neither are intended to annoy anyone... One is that 'racist' has become an insult, so only the unbalanced will say they're racist. I'd prefer 'prejudiced' to replace racist, then we could talk about particular forms of prejudice. Many 'I m not racist' people are prejudiced, and it's each person's particular prejudice that needs examining. Including mine. Sorry for the long post...

OldCastleSwift

I'm not sure you'd get too many people prepared to admit that they're prejudiced, either.

I'm still yet to be convinced that there's any reason to boo the players taking the knee. Southgate and the FA have made it clear that it isn't a political statement and that it isn't endorsing the Black Lives Matter Global Network; just that they're doing it to discourage racism and promote equality within society.

I've seen the argument that fans just want to watch football, but does a 10-second anti-racism statement really distract from the 95 minutes that follow?

MrsGrey

That ' time wasting' argument doesn't wash. They don't boo minute's silences or minute's clappings, do they.

Imagine the carnage if anyone dared to boo the wreath laying and poppy malarkey, or Prince Phillip's passing, because ' we just want to get on with the game' and ' it's virtue signalling'.

epsom_bubbles

I don't agree with the booing, for whatever reason they boo the 'knee'. My personal feeling is that 'taking the knee' has almost lost its impact. Maybe a stronger symbol needs to be adopted, something as punchy as football shirts having a message, so when fans buy the shirt, the message is there for all to see. In time that message would be dulled, like clapping for the NHS. I don't know what the answer is but the message needs to be freshened, or livened up more frequently. Just my thoughts

MrsGrey

I don't disagree. Did it actually ever have any impact? I'm not sure. And I certianly never thought it would achieve anything in concrete terms, really. So whatever superseded it replaced with would be equally pointless in terms of effecting real change.

The only way change will come is by changing hearts and minds. Which requires open minds ....

Yeoldhammer

Unfortunately changing hearts and minds is not an instant light switch flick. It is something that comes over time with education (generational usually). Ultimately the taking the knee gesture is an empty gesture of awareness to a problem that everyone is already aware of. Its the powers that govern that need to enforce change / stricter punishments whether that's the FA / Government / Tech companies etc.

However whether its effective or not, an empty gesture or not should not be a reason to Boo England players who make a stance against a problem that everyone outside of "Racists" agree with. To combat racism and stop racist abuse.

IronHerb

I think it had an initial impact. Whether it changed minds I don't know but it certainly raised awareness.

MrsGrey

I don't know. Was there really anyone unaware?

OldCastleSwift

Yeoldhammer said:

Unfortunately changing hearts and minds is not an instant light switch flick. It is something that comes over time with education (generational usually).

Yup, this will always be a problem unfortunately. I had a conversation with my dad (who's 67) the other day that made me want to put my head through a wall. He's what I call generationally prejudiced. It doesn't come from a bad place; just a deeply ignorant one (I'm not for a second suggesting that all 67 year-olds are prejudiced, by the way). He's not hugely educated and gets most of his 'information' from the tabloid press and doesn't ever question political motive or allegiance.

But he's never forced his opinions or beliefs on anything onto me so I've been allowed to form my own, and that will be the same for my son. Not everyone will have that luxury though, and I've no doubt that some children are raised to have certain prejudices and until that chain is broken there will always be a problem.

Yeoldhammer

Over time attitudes and opinions will change you only have to look at history to see how far in the last 30 - 40 years we have come with regards to Racism / Sexism / LGBT Rights. The problem is for Millennials like myself and Gen Z (Zoomers) and for a lot of people that this change (as there is still A LOT more to be done with regards to these issues) that simply this is not fast enough (after all we are the two generations that live life on Fast Forward) and it shouldn't take another 30 - 40 years to achieve what should not be a problem in the 21st century currently.

Unfortunately it will take that amount of time, i cant see a space where these ideas are turbo charged to be done any faster as the political will simply does not currently exist for it. That frustration combined with lack of substantial change in a relatively quick manner for how i view it, is leading to huge disconnects in society and polarisation much like in America.

None of this isn't to say that people should not stop fighting for equality or that it isn't worth it as that fight is needed for the changes to happen in the future but the expectation that it happens like a flick of a switch is one that in my opinion is a pipe dream. The best thing to do is to keep winning those small gains and keep the conversation moving and expending whatever political capital to make those small gains where you can get broad consensus, it often feels like in terms of politics right now everyone is aiming for the absolute big win which never ever comes to fruition.

claretandbluesky

It's an interesting debate regard does education and changing hearts and minds work rather than brute force deterrent. I suspect a combination of both. It's not a pointless fight however as very sadly I still remember when i first began going to Upton Park that black players from the opposing teams would sometimes have bananas thrown at them. This would be unthinkable today, so the fight does bring results and we have to keep fighting, and the players taking a knee is a part of that. So the question regard those morons who thought that was ok back in the eighties is did they stop because they were made to reflect by education and found some guidance regard being a decent human being, that was clearly lacking before then? or was it simply that they knew that their behaviour would now bring a consequence?

I also am unsure if other sports such as Rugby, Tennis or cricket would find booing taking place.

alderz

claretandbluesky said:

So the question regard those morons who thought that was ok back in the eighties is did they stop because they were made to reflect by education and found some guidance regard being a decent human being, that was clearly lacking before then? or was it simply that they knew that their behaviour would now bring a consequence?

I think these are some important points. The thing with education is that it’s likely more accessible to children, so that change is less likely to take place in adults who were engaging in that behaviour.

But the point around knowing their behaviour wasn’t legally or socially acceptable is why taking the knee is important still. Yes, people boo it. But more people stood up and drowned out the booing with applause. The more those booing see that they are not the majority, the more it will fade away.

MrsGrey

alderz said:

But the point around knowing their behaviour wasn’t legally or socially acceptable is why taking the knee is important still.

It's easier to change behaviour than to change belief. That's why there is still so much racial abuse of players online (often anonymous, seldom punished) and much less now in stadia (not anonymous, clubs can ban offenders etc).

PrestonHammer

I think if they really want to make a change, all the players and clubs should all boycott social media indefinitely until the big tech companies pull their fingers out and do something about the online racial bullying and all the other forms of abuse that goes on that cesspit known as Twitter.

IronHerb

Too much money involved Preston.

alderz

PrestonHammer said:

I think if they really want to make a change, all the players and clubs should all boycott social media indefinitely until the big tech companies pull their fingers out and do something about the online racial bullying and all the other forms of abuse that goes on that cesspit known as Twitter.

They should all boycott football, I think. Imagine if all the players said they won’t play because of abuse from fans. It would have such a massive impact on some big companies that something would change

IronHerb

I don't think so.