Discussion of 'taking the knee' and related ideas

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Euro 2020 (2021).
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  • claretandblueskyclaretandbluesky
    Just reading about the booing again at the start. I think the team as a whole should release a statement asking anyone who intends boo to please not come and that the England team would rather they stay away. I understand that some don't agree with the gesture but imagine the outcry if everyone who didn't agree with the monarchy were to boo the national anthem.
  • yoyoyoyo
    I Dont think any sensible person can disagree with the BLM sentiment but I personally think it could go further if the movement was
    " All Life Matters." Shoot me down if you think that's racist but surely all life counts regardless of colour. IMO that's where it's losing the publics patience.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    edited June 2021
    yoyo said:

    I Dont think any sensible person can disagree with the BLM sentiment but I personally think it could go further if the movement was
    " All Life Matters." Shoot me down if you think that's racist but surely all life counts regardless of colour. IMO that's where it's losing the publics patience.

    It’s not racist to suggest that, it’s just that in a lot of these debates certain people pushed ‘All Lives Matter’ as a way to divert from the issue of black lives - people who are racist - so that’s why the term can feel linked to racism for many.

    Saying Black Lives Matter is saying All Lives Matter. It’s not saying other lives don’t matter but that black lives do as well - and that’s been necessary to say because of how media coverage and court systems work. It’s not “only Black Lives Matter” or “black lives matter more”. Some people will start going on about the organisation but when people make this statement, that’s not any allegiance to the organisation, which has views that some agree with and others don’t. It’s just a simple statement about justice.

    It’s like saying that “end poverty”. That’s great but is that broad statement going to achieve anything? Sometimes we need to focus on areas where poverty is really bad so we can reach the bigger goal.

    I think the public is losing patience because we allow big mouths to divert our debates and misrepresent things, that another person is taking something from us.

    I think it’s pretty clear that football uses these pre-game gestures to cover its failure of action but I’m still uncomfortable with those booing.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2021
    I genuinely can't see that there's a justifiable reason for booing.

    The gesture and slogan came as a response to acts that were nothing other than racist - there's no way imo that anyone could argue otherwise ( legitimately). The players and manager have made clear that they are not endorsing any organisation or political group.

    So now we have an explicitly anti- racist symbol being carried out by our own players, many of whom have been or are still being subject to racial insults and slurs in public.

    And people in the stands are booing that gesture.
    I think it is disgusting behaviour.
    And imo their feeble attempt to justify it by saying it's because they don't agree with the politics of the BMA group is unconvincing.

    If they all agree that racism has no place in football, then just keep quiet during the ' knee'... You don't have to clap. Just show some respect.
  • OldCastleSwiftOldCastleSwift
    edited June 2021
    Agreed, Mrs G. It's not difficult to understand that players taking the knee is an anti-racism statement. And if you're anti anti-racism...

    I even saw a video on social media last night of someone filming themselves in front of their TV, during the 'knee', booing along with the fans. They took the effort of doing that, and then actually posted it for the world to see.
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    Its unfortunately going to get worse when the PL returns. The amount of Booing is going to be very very toxic. I do wonder if this will add more to the conversation and keep the momentum of anti-racist protest going as a result in defiance of the booing or whether it just compounds the behaviour and emboldens racists when they see a loud minority booing.
  • OldCastleSwiftOldCastleSwift
    It would be quite nice if clubs took a zero-tolerance approach to booing during the knee. Banning fans that feel it necessary to boo would eradicate it, but I don't know how that would work in reality.
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    Not everyone who boos is a racist.
  • OldCastleSwiftOldCastleSwift
    So what are they booing during the anti-racism statement?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    But they are aligning themselves with those who are.
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    So all the footballers who stand during the taking of the knee are racist too?
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    The footballers who stand, the ones I know of, are making a point that the knee has become an empty gesture while nothing else changes. It’s not a protest against the knee itself. Booing the knee is not the same.
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    But I believe some are booing the gesture not the intent, while of course some are racist.
  • OldCastleSwiftOldCastleSwift
    edited June 2021
    IronHerb said:

    But I believe some are booing the gesture not the intent, while of course some are racist.

    But the gesture supports the intent, surely. To condemn one is to condemn the other, is it not? I could understand if the gesture was violent or illegal, but why would someone actively oppose a 10-second (if that), peaceful gesture in support of racial equality?
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    edited June 2021
    Are they booing the gesture because it’s not enough? I’m not sure they are but if they are then maybe booing isn’t the right move. Perhaps a sign would be better because many who are booing are racist.
  • alderzalderz
    IronHerb said:

    Not everyone who boos is a racist.

    If everyone who was racist was doing something, then I, as a non-racist, would probably not join in.

    If Herb is right and not everyone booing is racist, then the absolute best case scenario is that these people are comfortable being aligned with racists, which isn't really very good either.
  • alderzalderz
    IronHerb said:

    So all the footballers who stand during the taking of the knee are racist too?

    I think if a footballer stood on the pitch and booed, that would be seen as a racist gesture. If the fans who are booing that you are suggesting are not racist were doing what the likes of Zaha are doing - i.e. not participating and standing silently - they would not be called racist.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    I think the problem maybe down to mixed messaging. When questioned on TV pundits and managers etc all say they are taking the knee to support equality in all forms but The TV companies themselves plaster the screens with Black Lives Matter logos which implies that it is only racial inequality which is a problem.
    Every day we hear a black player complaining about racial abuse on social media, which of course they don’t need to be on, but it’s widely known that gay players etc are afraid to come out because of the fear of abuse
    It’s not a new thing related only to black players, most white players get abuse from opposing fans (think Beckham at the Boleyn) and from their own when their team loses.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited June 2021
    In the USA the right have accused BLM of being a cover for Marxism and just as BLM in the UK was inspired by the USA so the accusation has followed. It is a nice excuse if you don't want to admit you are racist

    I think its hysterical that young men earning several thousand pounds a week are secretly hoping for the overthrow of the capitalist system.

    Imagine if you will; Phil Foden, Raheem Sterling and Kyle Walker leading the proletariat as they storm the gates of the Etihad Stadium, depose Khaldoon Al Mubarak and transform Manchester City into a workers' collective!

    So comrades, come rally and the last fight let us face.
    The Internationale unites the human race.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    "Blue Moon" to be replaced by "the Red Flag"
  • HamstewHamstew

    Oh Martin
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    ASLEF

    You lost me at 'In the USA the right'
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Martin Daubney, ex-Sun, ex-News of the World, ex-editor of Loaded magazine, organised a "straight pride" march in 2007, has published articles on Breitbart, elected Brexit Party MEP in 2019, calls himself "the UK’s go-to voice on masculinity & men’s issues”

    Sounds like a delightful chap...
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    I'm loving that twisted logic : end the knee or it will majorly kick off. Like it's the fault of those taking the knee ... how about the 'kicking off types' take some personal responsibility for their behaviour?

    GRRR.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    thornburyiron said:


    It’s not a new thing related only to black players, most white players get abuse from opposing fans (think Beckham at the Boleyn) and from their own when their team loses.

    But racial abuse (as opposed to other forms of abuse) is only related to black players.

    Of course many fans criticise black players - but it doesn't have to be expressed inn racist terms. That's in the same category as criticising Beckham etc, but 'there's no room for racism' absolutely illustrates this point, imo.

    separtely, whether it's their 'own' fans or not doing the criticising I think is utterly irrelevant in this debate.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    This is worth reading.

    https://unherd.com/thepost/dont-dismiss-the-booers-as-bigots/?mc_cid=ec88bebeb2&mc_eid=735486601a
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    That's what I said wasn't it? 😁
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    Read it and thought that it was a completely garbage right wing article personally. Just my opinion though.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Yeoldhammer said:

    Read it and thought that it was a completely garbage right wing article personally. Just my opinion though.

    FYI
    https://unherd.com/author/paul-embery/
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2021
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    This is worth reading.

    https://unherd.com/thepost/dont-dismiss-the-booers-as-bigots/?mc_cid=ec88bebeb2&mc_eid=735486601a

    I read it, and have to disagree that it was 'worth' it.

    Lots of unsupported opinion and assertion, purports to speak for 'people and their motives/attitudes - on both sides - with no evidence.

    And the characterisation of each side is stereotyped and simplistic. Those 'for' = moralistic virtue signallers. Those 'agains't = free thinkers who don't like being patronised. Again, wholly opinion and wholly un-nuanced.

    As for 'Kick it Out' being held up as a universally supported example of how to do it right ... what rubbish.


    Point 1 - KIO and those associated with it have come in for plenty of criticism over the years. So any argument he builds on that basis is rubbish.

    Point 2. KIO has been around for 25 years and racism (and other types of) abuse is still all over the place.

    3. KIO supports the taking the knee. https://www.kickitout.org/news/taking-the-knee-by-sanjay-bhandari So the writer of the article is holding up KIO as a 'better' organisation .... he's arguing that the booers boo not because they oppose the aim of taking the knee but because of its PR approach is frankly, unconvincing. And invalid, imo.
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