Arsenal H Sunday 10th May 4:30pm

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Comments

  • buffybegoodbuffybegood
    The frustrating thing is that half of Arsenal's set piece goals this season undoubtedly could have been ruled out for fouls they commited, it's the complete lack of consistency that makes this such a bitter pill to swallow.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    It doesn’t matter how many fouls they see or identified, it’s the one they consider was committed first. As soon as the corner came in Pablo fouled Raya and all the grappling which started before the kick counts for nothing.
    They checked Rice on Mavro and would probably have awarded a penalty had Wilson not scored and the foul on Raya been cleared.
    You can’t call all the fouls as fouls and penalise them. If you could Arsenal would have had at least two free kicks and we’d have had a least two penalties.
  • claretandblueskyclaretandbluesky
    In that photo all are being committed at the same time, unless his arm had been there before and stayed there suspended it couldn't have been sooner and the holding couldn't have only been before the corner was taken as the photo proves.

  • MIAHammerMIAHammer
    Having watched this numerous times, Pablo never moved towards Raya. Raya moved into the area where Pablo was. Pablo’s jersey was also being pulled by Trossard and Gabriel. So if we’re going in order of sequence shouldn’t that foul be called before the foul on Raya?
    Not that it changes anything. We just have to win our next 2 games and hope Spurs falters.
    Could have been another story if Fernandes had put away his chance.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Interesting to see what Peter Scmeical had to say. He reckons that if the ref thinks that warrants cancelling a goal and awarding a free kick after viewing it 17 times then Arsenal would never have become champions as they do exactly what happened at every corner they take
  • buffybegoodbuffybegood
    thornburyiron said:

    Interesting to see what Peter Scmeical had to say. He reckons that if the ref thinks that warrants cancelling a goal and awarding a free kick after viewing it 17 times then Arsenal would never have become champions as they do exactly what happened at every corner they take

    That's pretty much what I said.
  • alderzalderz
    buffybegood said:

    thornburyiron said:

    Interesting to see what Peter Scmeical had to say. He reckons that if the ref thinks that warrants cancelling a goal and awarding a free kick after viewing it 17 times then Arsenal would never have become champions as they do exactly what happened at every corner they take

    That's pretty much what I said.
    Never seen Peter Schmeichel and buffy in the same room tbf
  • FortuneseekerFortuneseeker
    Howard Webb (Mr look at me I like to be in the celebrity limelight) ought to be made to review various similar incidents from this season mainly benefiting Arsenal and explain why the goals stood and ours didn't. It's high time the referees were made to come out and explain their decisions as I reckon a lot wouldn't be able to give a proper explanation. If as I understand a foul was committed that resulted in Pablo being off balance then the goal was good?
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    Who actually is pulling Raya's shirt?

    Todibo

    Don't think of it as relegation, rather an opportunity to visit some grounds we've not been to for a very long time
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    So apparently we are about to ask for an explanation from the officials, not really sure to what end, the final decision maybe arguable but is fully defensible and is never going to be overturned
  • FortuneseekerFortuneseeker
    I agree chicago it will make absolutely no difference to our current demise but it's high time the officials were put under greater scrutiny and held to answer for their thought processes. All this praise coming the way of the PGMOL, I have yet to see or read that there wasn't a foul by an Arsenal player before the incident Darren England choose to focus on. Someone said Troussard fouled Pablo before he impeded Raya?
  • alderzalderz
    The only reason you speak to PGMOL about it is to do the PR spin that we were relegated and it wasn't our fault (if indeed we do get relegated). It feels pointless to me.
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    From this clip it seems as trossard shoves Pablo into raya

    https://x.com/HammerWelling/status/2053627597028720801?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^2053636343603806256|twgr^|twcon^s3_&ref_url=
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    The key incidents panel will review it and report.

    It's all academic.
  • FortuneseekerFortuneseeker
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cd9p01l1x5zo

    I'll let you all make sense of this.

    Words like "not enough contact" & "the ball not going to land in that area".
    There is always enough contact at Anfield or Old Trafford for penalties to be given and it appears Soucek could have had a fight with Havertz and it would have been ok, Sarcasm I know.
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    Fortuneseeker said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cd9p01l1x5zo

    I'll let you all make sense of this.

    Words like "not enough contact" & "the ball not going to land in that area".
    There is always enough contact at Anfield or Old Trafford for penalties to be given and it appears Soucek could have had a fight with Havertz and it would have been ok, Sarcasm I know.

    "the ball not going to land in that area" is such a weak excuse and opens up a can of worms and huge grey area. So are we saying it would be ok for Diouf to walk up to Saka wrap his arms around him and push him off the pitch if the ball is on the other side of the pitch with AWB or Trossard. Fouls are committed off the ball as well as on the ball. Being in the box or not does not have a different set of rules bar the foul committed inside the box awarding a penalty kick.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    I can see why we are asking the PGMOL for clarification, not that we will get it.
    I’ve read “explanations” from ex refs today with differing views. Gallagher said if you view it in chronological order then clearly Pablo puts his arm across Raya as the first event. How on earth he could see that is beyond me as Trossard is pushing Pablo into Raya and you can see the ball in the air.
    Another ref said the primary foul was Pablo on Raya because the ball was dropping onto Raya so that was the more critical. Since when was there a pecking order of fouls. If VAR is going to look at incidents at corners then they should view it from the moment the ball is kicked which in this case should be there’s a penalty shout (or two) but the goal overrides that if the whistle wasn’t blown which it wasn’t.
    In most cases and certainly in this case it seems that VAR’s main objective is “is there any reason to disallow the goal” and there it was in Pablo on Raya.
    The cynic in me suggests that if it had been anyone other than Arsenal the goal would have stood because of the outcry there would have been from Arteta and the likes of Ian Wright that VAR had cost them the title.
  • alderzalderz
    edited May 11
    The only part that has really riled me is that apparently it was the first goal disallowed for this reason all season (according to a BBC article)
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    I rest my case as per my last sentence.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    I must admit that I did not see the game live but looking at that clip, and I assume VAR provided a similar viewpoint…….to my mind, either the goal stands or a penalty should have been awarded
  • carsonroadboycarsonroadboy
    Reviewing the clips of the ‘foul’, it is clear that there were other fouls being perpetrated at the same time. I saw that as the ball came across, Rice had both arms round the waist of Mavropanos, and was clearly preventing his movement towards the ball. Had that offence occurred in the centre circle, it would undoubtedly have been called a foul, and possibly been called a yellow card one.
    Since both Pablo and Rice’s fouls were contemporaneous, and not one before the other, should there not have been two applications of the rules, so that the goal was disallowed for Pablo’s offence, and a penalty given for Rice’s foul?
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Carson, that's a very sensible solution, is there anything in the laws that would allow that?
    Also congratulations on sneaking in a six-syllable word onto a football forum. =)
  • buffybegoodbuffybegood
    It's no surprise that the decision went Arsenal's way, as so many at the other end of other matches have gone their way too.

    The real issue though is that corners are getting increasingly physical, both before delivery and once the ball is in the air. Something radical needs to be done to reset the way corners are refereed. 2 suggestions I saw (in a BBC article I think) were that no attackers should be allowed in the 6 yard box before the ball is delivered, and that the ball is deemed to be in play as soon as it's placed in the quadrant, so fouls (and penalties) can be given before the corner is actually taken.

    Both are worthy of consideration imo, because referees are doing a bad job of difficult situations as things are currently.
  • claretandblueskyclaretandbluesky
    I'm still looking up Contemporaneous! I'll have to get back to you about the other stuff.
  • FortuneseekerFortuneseeker
    I am sure someone can clarify this but wasn’t part of the problem that Pablo was fouled resulting in him colliding with Rayo but VAR didn’t consider this?
  • MunichHammerMunichHammer
    I think that this incident might actually work in our favour. While I believe that the ref was right in calling Pablo's arm on Raya a foul the controversy now seems to have shifted public opinion towards a) our players being manhandled and b) Arsenal's behaviour thoughout the season.
    So over the next few games refs might actually try and even things out for us and give us a pen when previously they might not. There was something similar after the Everton game and the backlash about Fernandes' handball. I think this influenced referees, too.
  • carsonroadboycarsonroadboy
    Bubbles, I doubt that two offences occurring at the same time is detailed in the rules, but VAR had the opportunity to arrive at a sensible and fair resolution of the events by determining No Goal, and Penalty.
    In the end they only appear to have looked at how they could cancel a goal, and ignored all the other offences happening at the same time.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    As we are now in the world of enhanced technology why isn’t VAR being driven by AI. That would rule out any subjective element and if programmed correctly every similar incident would be judged by the same criteria and should end with consistent solutions. There are 10 matches and 10 different sets of VAR officials every match week. The VAR officials change each week as different referees act as VAR’s so although the correct rules should be applied every time decisions are subjective based upon how that particular official generally interprets the rules.

    Our goal would have been ruled out or allowed the same as other sides. How many times did Spurs concede from a corner (to our benefit) because opponents were all over Vicario and the likes of Neville and Carragher would merely say he should be stronger.
  • alderzalderz
    edited May 12
    As someone who has done a little bit of work in the AI realm, I would say we are far from that being a viable solution.
  • alderzalderz
    thornburyiron said:

    There are 10 matches and 10 different sets of VAR officials every match week. The VAR officials change each week as different referees act as VAR’s

    I have personally thought for a while that they should be looking to bring in specialist VARs, rather than putting the refs in charge. Reading Graham Scott's article in the Athletic recently, it sounds like they all hate the responsibility of doing it, and then they're back out in front of a baying crowd the next week. I think they should professionalise VARs.

    (Do I get praise for a six syllable word too?)
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