American Election Discussion

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  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited November 2016
    He's in favour of racial profiling.

    That is, making assumptions* about people based on their race or ethnicity.




    * that is, assumptions of criminality. what we like to call, negative.
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    edited November 2016
    The tragedy of Trump's election is how far we've come from the intellects of the Founding Fathers to now.

    eg. Thomas Paine "Rights of Man". You might like that Madcap.

    cf. JFK's remark at a dinner honouring Nobel Prize winners of the Western Hemisphere in 1962:
    "I want to tell you how welcome you are to the White House. I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

    What would he have said about Trump's boast:
    "All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me - consciously or unconsciously. That's to be expected".

    ;nonono ;nonono
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited November 2016
    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"



  • simoncsimonc
    Mrs G racial profiling is not what we were discussing, nor was Trump, Trump is in favor of stop and frisk, If a corner is constantly used to sell drugs does it not make sense to allow the police to search the people who are acting suspicious there?
    It depends on the implementation of the law not the law.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    No, we were discussing if he was racist or had expressed racist views.

    He has publicly supported racial profiling, specifically in the context of Muslims.

    Which is racist.

    ergo, he has expressed racist views.
  • simoncsimonc
    To be correct we were discussing "misogynistic & xenophobic" which has somehow evolved into racist.
    With all mud slinging some is inevitably going to stick & Trump himself has done very little to help the situation. Call ensuring that the views of immigrants are in line with the constitution of the USA what you wish but it is not racist.

    https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/article pdfs/Shariah_VS_Constitution.pdf

  • MoojorMoojor
    MrsGrey said:

    No, we were discussing if he was racist or had expressed racist views.

    He has publicly supported racial profiling, specifically in the context of Muslims.

    Which is racist.

    ergo, he has expressed racist views.

    As the devil's advocate. Muslim isn't race. It's religious belief. If you so wish you can convert and become Muslim. You can't convert and become Mexican. He is bigoted about Muslims and racist about his comments on Mexicans immigrants all being drug dealers or rapists.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited November 2016
    Well, if it makes you happier, let's just say that we started off discussing one thing but then the discussion evolved, as it often does, to touch on other issues.

    You don't have to join in if you don't want to.

    However, finding one thing he said that's not racist doesn't exempt him from scrutiny on other stuff he's said which IS racist.

    And which I pointed out above.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    MadCap, I agree the system is flawed but
    Moojor said:

    MrsGrey said:

    No, we were discussing if he was racist or had expressed racist views.

    He has publicly supported racial profiling, specifically in the context of Muslims.

    Which is racist.

    ergo, he has expressed racist views.

    As the devil's advocate. Muslim isn't race. It's religious belief. If you so wish you can convert and become Muslim. You can't convert and become Mexican. He is bigoted about Muslims and racist about his comments on Mexicans immigrants all being drug dealers or rapists.
    The majority of the time, profiling of Muslims relies on the image people have of Muslims, so it becomes racial profiling. That argument is often brought up but the reality is that racism is a big part of it e.g. attacks on Sikhs who people think are Muslims.
  • simoncsimonc
    edited November 2016
    It has become obvious that the truth does not matter if the headlines fit personal political agendas. I also find some of what Trump said inflammatory, he as many do has exaggerated to make a point, however when only 1/2 quotes are used to make them sound something different to what they originally were who are the bigoted ones?
    Again i ask why is he a woman hater? What makes his views on tighter immigration control xenophobic? It may be hard to believe considering the headlines but he never did call "all Mexicans rapists" yet he is a "racist" I understand many do not like him personally but he provides a unique opportunity to get something done in Washington for once. He is neither a Republican or Democrat & I think some Republicans are going to be shocked by his Democratic leanings, hopefully common sense will prevail & a workable health plan will evolve, term limits will be imposed & America can start making things again without ridiculous restrictive regulations.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    Can you show us some quotes that look better when more of them is shared? My experience is it usually looks worse.

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    He didn't say that all Mexican immigrants are rapists but he set out to give that impression. That good people are the exception. He didn't say many, or some, immigrants are rapists. He said "they're", which implies all or majority.

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited November 2016
    Simon, if you use the definition that misogyny is the dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women, I don't think you'll have any problem understanding why people thin he is misogynist. Call it sexist, if you prefer. It's not much different.

    His history of comments about and to women, the things he admires them for and the things he criticizes them for reveals his fundamental attitude towards them.

    If you like, you can say that he is exaggerating to make a point, but he has a long and well-documented history of derogatory remarks and attitudes towards women that pre-date his campaigning. I'm not going to list them all as you can look them up easily enough.

    So I can assure you I (speaking only for myself) that I am not looking at only headlines, or half quotes, to inform my judgement.
  • KuchinghammerKuchinghammer
    So you're 52 Madcap? Now I realise who's been organising the West Ham defence these last few decades... ;whistle ;hug
  • MIAHammerMIAHammer
    simonc said:


    I am hopeful that he knocks down the wall that Obama built between the Democrats & Republicans. Mitch McConnell is already trying to push back against term limits and infrastructure development, on these and many more issues i am hopeful that Trump will reach across the isle & get all the votes he needs to pass.

    How exactly did Obama build that wall? By winning the Presidency and being black?
    The Republicans said from day 1 that they would obstruct everything he tried to do. And they followed through with their promise for 8 years. It's absolutely amazing that he achieved anything at all with that kind of opposition. It's funny how after 8 years of this they are now saying we are one nation and everyone should get behind the president. Pure hypocrisy at its best.
  • simoncsimonc
    It may surprise a few here but i voted for Obama's first term, not too sure what black has to do with anything we are discussing? Obama promised change and unity then once in power & had control of both houses ignored everything he promised and rammed his policies down the throats of the republicans. It is not that surprising then that once in power the republicans tried to stop him.
    I am hopeful that with Trump not being a typical republican we will get a government that will help business but also care for the underprivileged. Only time will tell but one things for sure this would not have happened under a Clinton presidency.
  • westcoastironwestcoastiron
    SimonC - which policies did Obama "ram down the throats of Republicans"? As MIAHammer correctly points out, McConnell and the Republicans' only stated policy was to make Obama a one-term president. The Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) was only passed because it was sufficiently watered down to placate and preserve the health insurance industry. It has now extended health care coverage to 21 million Americans who did not have it before, and yet Trump has said he wants to repeal and replace with - what? - something as yet specified in any detail ("a workable health plan will evolve").

    And I have yet to see any Trump policies that will "care for the underprivileged". Tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics have been proven not to work (see the Reagan presidency and the current dire state of Kansas). Increased taxes on the most wealthy coupled with judicious investment and spending on social programs demonstrably do work (see the W. Clinton presidency and the current booming state of California).
  • simoncsimonc
    Westcoast - Maybe you do not remember the funding issues & the government shutdowns, there was no compromise simply this is how it is going to be, as was his right he was President. I for one did not think this was in the spirit he was elected for so did not vote for his second term. As for Kansas i assume you chose that over Illinois because Illinois is Democratic & is in the worse financial state in the nation. Tax and spend is a way to provide services unfortunately if you do not support small businesses there in nothing left to tax.
    Regan /Bush-1 set up Clinton for success & he milked it simple as that, all indices were on the increase when he came in and on the way down when he left.
    Obamacare has been a financial disaster, I agree everyone should have access to healthcare but again Obamas promises carried as much weight as thin air, if you like it you can keep your plan "not" You can keep your doctor - "Not in many cases" Affordable "Not with the deductibles and co pays" Add to that the indirect "Cadillac" tax applied to companies that provide better health care coverage than is required in the act ($7,000/employee at my company) & you start to see why it is so unpopular.
    As for an alternative https://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-PolicyPaper.pdf
    Like it or not Trump is going to get 4 years to try something different, I understand people disagree but time will tell.
  • Colchester_IronColchester_Iron
    image
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    chicagohammer said:

    Madcap, not sure what you do for a living, but there must a career out there for someone with your talent for writing.

    Just saying

    ;ok

    That`s possibly one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me.

    I lead a very Bohemian existence, I travel the globe instigating radical and rebel forces against the twin tyrannies of state and capitalism. ;whistle

    Sorry, sugar levels a little low. I sell lightbulbs and associated products to the good people of Suffolk and like most people struggle to pay the mortgage at the end of the month.

    The one thing I look forward to every year, and if we would only admit it to ourselves, it`s probably what keeps most of us going, is Black Friday. Just over a week to go. ;wahoo
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Madcap - sorry to burst your bubble....

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/16/black-friday-uk-warning-report-half-offers-real-deal-pricing
    Black Friday warning as report finds only half of offers are the real deal

    Many products promoted as ‘on sale’ last year were actually cheaper before or after event, according to Which? investigation
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    ;weep ;nonono

    Is nothing sacred anymore.

    https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/11/asda-black-friday-640x430.jpg

    She`d get no arguments from me.

    http://mypullzone.orangepopmediall.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/shoppers_were_seen_pushing_and_fighting_one_a-23_1417167409154-640x435.jpg

    OMG.

    Can you not feel the excitement mounting........................

  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    Too funny - my plan for maintaining my sanity is never, ever go to the mall on the Friday after thanksgiving - it is rare to see much holiday spirit or evidence of goodwill to your fellow man.

    Nope - I stay indoors and devour the leftovers

    ;hug
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    My take on the Trump transition:

    image
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    As events unfold, I'm starting to wonder if he actually wanted to be President - in terms of doing the job, rather than just be the top banana.

    He has never been interested in politics before, he seems to have little clue about what's going on, he is busy posting on twitter and making jokes (are they jokes) about 'finalists' when he should be sorting out his transition and various government appointments.

    Was it all just a big ego trip and trolling on a massive scale?
  • AdamAdam
    Pretty sure he never actually believed he was going to be president. It just seemed to be an experiment - 'What's the most outrageous thing can I say, that I can get away with' - and people seemed to 'connect' with his views.
  • SwissironSwissiron
    in this way he is like Boris in that Teresa May thinks that she kept him harmless by making him foreign secretary. I am giving up on understanding all this, I'm going to go and live in Africa where there is still something useful to help with
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    MrsGrey, with the direction of his appointments, I'd rather he didn't continue with his transition government.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    I know.

  • VorselaarhammerVorselaarhammer
    I think it's clear that we can't judge his behavior against the norm in terms of previous presidents, to my understanding this is one of the main reasons he was elected.

    As such we need to see where he is in a couple of months to determine if he is delivering on his "fresh" approach.

    I really hate that Farage is getting credit from this, I can him becoming a Tory in the future and running for leader.
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Vorselaar, Farage would probably get 17,410,742 votes ;hmm
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