Saints (A) 3pm Boxing Day live on Amazon Prime

Lukerz

jay_in_cpt said:

IronHerb said:

Lukerz said:

3 points up on same games last season

Still lots of questions

I make it we're 7 points down.

23-24 W9 D3 L6 Pts30
24-25 W6 D5 L7 Pts23

Feel this is a much fairer way of looking at it, not “who” we’ve played, as depending when we played those teams might have had an affect on end result ( teams had nothing to play for etc etc ), IMO 7 Points down is an honest sad reflection 👍🏻⚒️

I’d say the opposite, for example, say we played Liverpool, City, Arsenal & Chelsea in our first four games (3 away, 1 home), & lost all four, this season (I know we didn’t play those teams).

To then compare that to last season, where we played Bournemouth, Chelsea, Brighton & Luton. Clearly, on paper, that second set of games is more favourable than the first, yet you’d say it was fair to judge after four games the same & compare to the same stage last season? I don’t, so I never use ‘same stage as last season’ as a measurement.

Judging progress as results compared to the same results against the same teams last season - ie last season we drew 2-2 away at Sheffield Utd, this season we have beaten Southampton away 0-1 (the equivalent side) - helps us judge improvement in an objective way. Obviously how we played in those games compared to last season is subjective.

We lost 4-3 to Newcastle last season. This season we won 0-2. That is an improvement in result. We lost 5-0 to Fulham, this season drew 1-1. We lost 3-2 to Brentford, this season drew 1-1. We lost 5-2 to Palace, this season won 0-2. We lost 6-0 to Arsenal, this season lost 5-2. These are all objective improvement in results.

I know it’s not ideal, but my point is Lop is not doing badly, as he is currently ‘up’ on last seasons points per game (from the same fixtures, not number of games played). We finished 9th last season. So we are currently on course for another top 9 finish if we continue at the same trajectory. Well top 9, add 3 additional points to last seasons tally.

I am not saying we are going to finish top 9, every season is different, but we’re not doing badly - results wise. Performance is more subjective & up to you what you feel our performances are like.

I don’t share the same view as some fans that we have a fantastic squad that is underperforming dramatically. Last season Bowen & Kudus (occasionally Paquetá) carried us for the first half of the season & gained us enough points to keep us away from the bottom half when we had an abysmal second half of the season. The difference this season is neither of those have hit those highs.

We have a weak core. Starting CBs are not great as a pair, midfield is very ponderous & we have no quality, consistent striker (albeit Füllkrug needs time). We have decent keepers, good starting full-backs and good wide players, but the spine of our squad could be much stronger & it was the same last season too. Paquetá being off it for a year now is a major problem as when he is consistently ‘on it’ we have the potential to be a completely different side but without him turning up, that midfield is flimsy.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Agree RE the squad, remember the Sky predictor they do every week and it's quite analytical and it's quite sky bet focused

Remember last season, the guy who does it was saying week in week out how much we were overperforming against our xG and xGA and how the bubble was gonna burst as it was unsustainable, then remember him being quite smug as our form fell off

Kudus, Bowen & Paqueta pulled us through a lot of the time through individual brilliance last year

MrsGrey

Luke, I feel like you are bringing a knife to a gun fight 😆

Lukerz

Possibly 😂

IronHerb

Going back to jay's point regarding discipline we have had 44 yellows and 2 Reds in the league.

For reference -

Southampton 53-3
Chelsea 52-1
Fulham 45-2
Leicester 45-0
Ipswich 43-2
Forest 42-2
Man Utd 42-2
Wolves 42-1

So we do have the 4th worst disciplinary record so far.

Eight suspensions including this coming weekend.

jay_in_cpt

Barney said:

Cant help thinking we are being quite lucky

Exactly this IMO, nearly ALL of our performances have been close to VERY POOR IMO, regardless how many points we have, some will of course see it in 'their own way' but for me under Moyes for the last season the writing was on the wall, but under J Lo it's simply rubbish for most, I have watched every game live on TV, and IMO the number of good games, won't even cover one hand of fingers, results have been VERY, VERY LUCKY in many of the points we've achieved, but hey J Lo is here, I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT, whether I am liking it or think he's our future, most definitely NOT........

jay_in_cpt

IronHerb said:

Going back to jay's point regarding discipline we have had 44 yellows and 2 Reds in the league.

For reference -

Southampton 53-3
Chelsea 52-1
Fulham 45-2
Leicester 45-0
Ipswich 43-2
Forest 42-2
Man Utd 42-2
Wolves 42-1

So we do have the 4th worst disciplinary record so far.

Eight suspensions including this coming weekend.

So, not as bad as I thought perhaps, but still, we do lack discipline and under Moyes, we seemed to have more of it....I think......

Lukerz

Just a reminder, our record against sides 10th or lower…
Played 10, 18 points (5 wins, 2 defeats, 3 draws).

Record against top 9…
Played 8, 5 points (1 wins, 2 draws, 5 defeats).

So we’re good against teams outside the top 9. It suggests decent teams exploit our failings but our style is good enough to take points off the average & poor teams in the PL.

jay_in_cpt

A bit of Christmas happiness for all...............Can see @buffybegood smoke coming from ears.......


West Ham United (First Team) v Liverpool FC (First Team)
Premier League
Referee: Taylor, Anthony
Assistant Referee: Beswick, Gary
Assistant Referee: Nunn, Adam
Fourth Official: Martin, Stephen
Video Assistant Referee: England, Darren
Additional Video Assistant Referee: Bennett, Simon

Lukerz

I am not sure the discipline is a major issue - the Kudus one was a one off. The other accumulation of suspensions & red cards could be due to a more aggressive style of play. Less sitting off & more pressing/tackling.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Thought AWB was very good again. For £15m, he is looking like a brilliant bit of business

buffybegood

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes said:

Thought AWB was very good again. For £15m, he is looking like a brilliant bit of business

He did give the ball away very poorly late on when he'd been switched to the left, but yes, overall, he's been a very sound bit of business, especially given that he seems to be second choice at LB as well as first choice at RB.

claretandbluesky

I think Walker-Peters contract is up in the summer, he was very good yesterday, he is a full back but could be also pushed up and used as a winger in my view. If Kudus goes he may be worth a look as we have Summerville already as a winger replacement if he can step up, if not maybe get Waker-Petrers and play him further up.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

claretandbluesky said:

I think Walker-Peters contract is up in the summer, he was very good yesterday, he is a full back but could be also pushed up and used as a winger in my view. If Kudus goes he may be worth a look as we have Summerville already as a winger replacement if he can step up, if not maybe get Waker-Petrers and play him further up.

If Walker-Peters could play as a winger, we'd have seen him as a winger

He'd be a back up to AWB, a great backup but I thin that he'd back himself to start for a handful of teams in the Prem

claretandbluesky

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

claretandbluesky said:

I think Walker-Peters contract is up in the summer, he was very good yesterday, he is a full back but could be also pushed up and used as a winger in my view. If Kudus goes he may be worth a look as we have Summerville already as a winger replacement if he can step up, if not maybe get Waker-Petrers and play him further up.

If Walker-Peters could play as a winger, we'd have seen him as a winger

He'd be a back up to AWB, a great backup but I thin that he'd back himself to start for a handful of teams in the Prem

Do you mean that players positions never evolve or change? how do you explain the first time Antonio was moved from a winger to full back to centre forward? He would be a winger still if your logic was correct, but someone said let's try him up front.

Walker-Peters has got all the attributes of a winger, many are indeed transferable from full back, you will recall even Emerson has ventured onto the wing a couple of times when needed, he has pace, can beat a player and can deliver a cross. All you would be doing is putting a full back behind him to relieve him of his defensive obligations and asking him focus on his attacking game, knowing he would be able cover the full back very well. I think as his attacking game is good he would be a versatile signing that could play at full back or the wing, but either way I can't agree with the idea that players are set into their initial positions, Dec started as a centre half, until someone pushed him forward, and Moyes converted Arnie from a winger to a centre forward pretty effectively.

alderz

I would be pretty disappointed if we decided that bottom of the league’s right back who’s never played as a left winger was our solution at left wing.

MrsGrey

c+b

While I take your point to some extent (positions can evolve), I think that in the examples you give some were done out of dire necessity. And generally not repeated (Antonio). Some were done with very young players not yet established (Dec).

Neither of those really fit the KWP scenario, so I think they are not useful precedents to cite.

claretandbluesky

claretandbluesky said:

I think Walker-Peters contract is up in the summer, he was very good yesterday, he is a full back but could be also pushed up and used as a winger in my view. If Kudus goes he may be worth a look as we have Summerville already as a winger replacement if he can step up, if not maybe get Waker-Petrers and play him further up.

My actual post said that he is a full back and we have Summerville as a replacement but that if Walker-Phillips joined he could 'maybe' be pushed up if Summerville didn't work out, as is being questioned by some at this point, as I think his attacking game is very good. I think he played on the left yesterday and was very effective.

It's also worth noting that buying from a Southampton side that gets relegated was not an issue to us when we thought Ward-Prowse could step into Dec's shoes when he was sold, but his name was mainly was raised on account of him being a free agent in the summer and so may be able to be picked up reasonably.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

claretandbluesky said:

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

claretandbluesky said:

I think Walker-Peters contract is up in the summer, he was very good yesterday, he is a full back but could be also pushed up and used as a winger in my view. If Kudus goes he may be worth a look as we have Summerville already as a winger replacement if he can step up, if not maybe get Waker-Petrers and play him further up.

If Walker-Peters could play as a winger, we'd have seen him as a winger

He'd be a back up to AWB, a great backup but I thin that he'd back himself to start for a handful of teams in the Prem

Do you mean that players positions never evolve or change? how do you explain the first time Antonio was moved from a winger to full back to centre forward? He would be a winger still if your logic was correct, but someone said let's try him up front.

Walker-Peters has got all the attributes of a winger, many are indeed transferable from full back, you will recall even Emerson has ventured onto the wing a couple of times when needed, he has pace, can beat a player and can deliver a cross. All you would be doing is putting a full back behind him to relieve him of his defensive obligations and asking him focus on his attacking game, knowing he would be able cover the full back very well. I think as his attacking game is good he would be a versatile signing that could play at full back or the wing, but either way I can't agree with the idea that players are set into their initial positions, Dec started as a centre half, until someone pushed him forward, and Moyes converted Arnie from a winger to a centre forward pretty effectively.

You got an example of a career Right Back who at 28 becomes a left winger?

Antonio was never a full back, he was frequently exposed and called out excuse he was very good there. That experiment died and when he got put to his own position he excelled

Antonio went from a winger to a CF, common in football. Rice went from a CB to DM, again common in football. Wingers who become full backs and vice versa often do so when they're still young

So show me a 28 year old right back become a competent left winger

claretandbluesky

I can't make him specifically 28 but this one should do ya, and qualify as 'competent' I think.

The second paragraph outlines the change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Bale


My point was not that Walker-Peters be signed as a winger ( I even mentioned that Summerville is our natural replacement for Kudus if he leaves) but on what I saw yesterday I think he could potentially become one on account of his attacking attributes. I think as a full back with attacking qualities and being on a free in the summer we could try and pick up a good player reasonably cheaply.

As for left and right, I think he played on the left yesterday and wingers and full backs can often swap sides, and do in the same match often enough.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

claretandbluesky said:

I can't make him specifically 28 but this one should do ya, and qualify as 'competent' I think.

The second paragraph outlines the change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Bale


My point was not that Walker-Peters be signed as a winger ( I even mentioned that Summerville is our natural replacement for Kudus if he leaves) but on what I saw yesterday I think he could potentially become one on account of his attacking attributes. I think as a full back with attacking qualities and being on a free in the summer we could try and pick up a good player reasonably cheaply.

As for left and right, I think he played on the left yesterday and wingers and full backs can often swap sides, and do in the same match often enough.

Yea Bale was a left back and generally was a bit of a disappointment and looked like he was never gonna live up to his potential

He turned into a winger in his 4th season of professional football at 21

He's not a 10 year pro footballer like KWP

Yea as a free he's a good move, but as a fullback not a winger, and imo he doesn't start ahead of AWB and he's not really a natural LB, doubt he starts over Emerson

Kuchinghammer

IMO Walker-Peters will be a better LB than Emerson next season. Also LWB. Emerson is unfortunately past his peak.
Having said that, Scarles may be the future at LB.

Kuchinghammer

Oh yes, also IMO Summerville made us a faster, far more threatening side after he came on. Put Kudus in the middle, where his dribbling will create real chances.
BTW I had a happy Christmas, and I hope we all have a splendid 2025! 😁