West Ham vs Tottenham - 12:30 Saturday 23.9.17 (match thread)

Lukerz

Disappointing not to get something out of that. Expected a point, tbh.

alderz

Hoped for a point, but expecting to get anything out of Spurs is foolish, imo.

buffybegood

MunichHammer said:

Why too little?

Because we scored 2 and they scored 3.

claretandbluesky

I think we were the better team, great commitment and deserved something from that match. My issue is we lack quality and they don't, and that quality is what allowed them to be clinical when their chances came and that allowed them to be 3-0 up against the run of play. You can show commitment and win tackles but it's what happens in the last third and we lack creativity and quality in that area.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

That's exactly it

The end of the day we were well in the match then lost our best player....with our other best player (lanzini) injured

This was a Tottenham team will all of their best players and when it came to it their quality shone through with Kane, Alli and Erikson who are all world class

grey_til_I_dye

Was worried we might turn up our toes at 3-0, but fair play, we went for it.

Never nice to lose, but not as discouraging as the other defeats this season, imo.

Lukerz

alderz said:

Hoped for a point, but expecting to get anything out of Spurs is foolish, imo.

Not really. Think it's more ambitious.

MunichHammer

buffybegood said:

MunichHammer said:

Why too little?

Because we scored 2 and they scored 3.

Too little too late implies we left it late in trying to get something from the game which I don't think is correct. Their team is better than ours and we lost because Antonio went off.

Yeoldhammer

Big few weeks for Slav now he needs points on the board.

Swansea Burnley Brighton Palace. he needs 10 points imo.

Adam

Unfortunately it was a tactical mistake to bring Carroll on. Should have brought on Ayew for Antonio, to keep trying to get in behind them as well as making sure the striker stays in the striking position (which Carroll doesn't do with the long diagonal balls we play to him).

Now I can take off my hindsight glasses.

OutcastLondoner

Agree Adam. I think when we had a working system we should tried to keep that going for a while.

baracks_a_hammer

I don't agree with the logic that we would/could have won or got a point had our "best player" stayed on the play pitch. He didn't even play half an hour and therefore plenty of time for things to have changed in the game even if he hadn't gone off

Lukerz

What worries me about Bilic, is this lack of a tactical gameplan.

Surely if he wanted to go with Antonio - Chicharito - Arne as a tactical decision, removing Carroll from the side, why did he change that and bring on Andy after only 30 mins, and not Ayew?

Sometimes have wonder if he knows what he's doing.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Baracks

So if the tables were turned and one of Kane or Erikson went off and Antonio stayed on then it would've been 2-0 before HT

I don't think anyone is using Antonio going off as the sole reason for us losing but it's foolish to think it didn't affect the game

MunichHammer

I'm not saying we would have won had Antonio stayed on the pitch. I'm saying we lost our shape once he went off and conceded two goals pretty quickly.

grey_til_I_dye

NBCSN review at half-time of the Citeh game shows that Carrol was definitely fouled, and should have been a pen towards the end.

alderz

Lukerz said:

alderz said:

Hoped for a point, but expecting to get anything out of Spurs is foolish, imo.

Not really. Think it's more ambitious.

"Expecting" isn't about ambition at all. I'd love to know what factors came together for you "expect" a draw. Was it their exceptional away form? Or maybe it was Lanzini being out? Maybe it was them finishing in the top three the past two seasons?

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Was I the only one who saw Aurier elbow then ball away inside their penalty area about two minutes before their first goal?

Also, Aurier was dragging Arnautovic down early on inside the box, with a big handful of Arnie's shirt.

MunichHammer

The BBC mentioned Arnie being pulled down. They even corrected their "great tackle" verdict and said it should have been a pen. So I'd say we were unlucky here. Certainly not a reason to sack Bilic

thornburyiron

Airier and Arnie were pulling each other's shirts so maybe 50/50 and for the handball he had his eyes shut as most professionals bizarrely seem to do so maybe it found be considered accidental. However, there was a slight nudge on Carroll which put him off so that should have been a pen.

OldCastleSwift

MunichHammer said:

I'm not saying we would have won had Antonio stayed on the pitch. I'm saying we lost our shape once he went off and conceded two goals pretty quickly.

And I think the reason we lost our shape was because of the point Lukerz made in the preceding post; Carroll for Antonio was, IMO, a mistake. Ayew or Sakho playing wide of Hernandez would have been the better option.

Lukerz

alderz said:

Lukerz said:

alderz said:

Hoped for a point, but expecting to get anything out of Spurs is foolish, imo.

Not really. Think it's more ambitious.

"Expecting" isn't about ambition at all. I'd love to know what factors came together for you "expect" a draw. Was it their exceptional away form? Or maybe it was Lanzini being out? Maybe it was them finishing in the top three the past two seasons?

The fact we have beaten them 3/4 of the last home games.

We have never been pummelled by Spurs since returning to the Premier League (a 4-1 exceptok aside).

I saw the line-ups and expected to come away unbeaten, given the dude we had out and Spurs' lukewarm start to the season.

I don't simply 'hope' for points just because we have a player out and are playing a side with decent players.

There wasn't much in that game and have seen it I am disappointed we took 0 points. They have certainly played better than that before.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

thornburyiron said:

Airier and Arnie were pulling each other's shirts so maybe 50/50 and for the handball he had his eyes shut as most professionals bizarrely seem to do so maybe it found be considered accidental. However, there was a slight nudge on Carroll which put him off so that should have been a pen.

Having your eyes shut doesn't excuse a foul or a handball. It just means you had your eyes closed when you broke the rules. He elbowed the ball out of the penalty area.

thornburyiron

Jorderz handball has to be intentional according to the rules so if a player can't see it he can't deliberately handle it so that's why I think the ref waved it away.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I get that it has to be intentional, but you can intentionally handball the ball and at the same time intentionally close your eyes. Then claim that it isn't a penalty because, for no reason whatsoever, your eyes were closed.

MrsGrey

No point discussing it, as this weekend is National No Penalty Weekend. It's why Sane didn't get a nailed on penalty in the City game ;ok

MunichHammer

I don't think it has to be intentional because then it's only handball if a player delibarately blocks the ball. It is no penalty if the ref thinks the hand was in a natural position and the player couldn't get it out of the way in time (i.e. point blank range) Anything else and it's a pen.

MIAHammer

The Carroll push should have been a penalty. The other 2 I don't think so.
Regarding, too little to late. I tend to agree with that sentiment. We did very little between the sending off (70 mins) and Kouyate's goal (87 mins). In those 17 minutes, zero shots on target - just 2 sky high efforts from way outside the box by Carroll and Ayew. Lloris wasn't tested once. Lot of possession in the middle of the park but no penetration up front.

MrsGrey

Munich, no, the handball rule does say that it is only an offence if it is deliberate. The things you mention -natural position of arm, etc-are just things the ref can take into account when making a decision about if it was deliberate.

MunichHammer

Then the German leagues have a different rule.