The manure match thread - Home, 2nd Jan 2017

chicagohammer

I do not see this one being rescinded, there is just enough room for "interpretation" that disallows the decision that the ref made an obvious and clear mistake.

Unfortunately

buffybegood

As I said during the game, not sure it will be rescinded even though it was very harsh. The photo in this article will be enough, imo, to argue that it wasn't a clear mistake as he went into the tackle with both feet off the ground, even though they were on the ground at the point of contact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38497190

eskimoking

I don't know buffy, that picture, for me, demonstrates it's not two-footed, it's not studs up, he's not obviously going to be late and he only has eyes for the ball.

NEoldiron

Buffy, look at the incident here:
http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2017/01/02/west-ham-united-vs-manchester-united-highlights-full-match-3/2/
Feghouli goes in with his knee bent in order to swing his foot at the ball. There was no studs up. The collision was between Feghouli's knee and the back of Jones' thigh.
If anyone dived in it was Phil Jones,

NEoldiron

The thing which I find ridiculous is that the red card is not rescinded if the panel think there was sufficient justification for Dean to have formed the opinion that it was a dangerous tackle, regardless of the video evidence to the contrary - ie. opinion trumps facts.

Surely it would be fairer if in these situations the red card is rescinded and no action taken against the referee.
However, if the situation was such that there was insufficient justification for a red card, not only is it rescinded, but also the referee is reprimanded in some fashion.

SuzanneClaret

The thing is though, they hate admitting that a ref was wrong.

Look at all the shenanagins with Aguero & Reid, the match ref saw it but took no action which means the incident can not be revisited so they say he 'didn't see nuffink guv' so they could retrospectively dish out Aguero's red.

Which is why they look at what the ref did / did not see rather than what actually happened.

NEoldiron

Time to introduce "citing" as in Rugby. And video referees ;biggrin

SuzanneClaret

What does 'citing' mean?

Vorselaarhammer

I think Phil Jones make a star performance which pushed Dean into the decision.

These English players, jumping & diving around when there is little contact, you would never see that from a foreign player.....

NEoldiron

Suze,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citing_commissioner

It wouldn't have to be exactly the same, but you get the drift.

SuzanneClaret

;ok

NEoldiron

Vorse ;lol

Lukerz

It'll be rescinded.

There is no grounds for it to stand. It's not high or two-footed or studs up. It's just a stretching tackle.

The panel will know allowing a player to serve a 3 game ban for that is embarrassing.

MrsGrey

SuzanneClaret said:

T
Which is why they look at what the ref did / did not see rather than what actually happened.

I don't agree with your view, suz. The issue of what the ref did or didn't see is relevant only when the panel is looking at retrospective action to give a red card.

When the issue is to have one cancelled, like now, the panel can effectively second-guess the referee.

When the red card appeal goes to the FA, their only role is to check if the appeal has been made properly (the appeal fee paid, by the deadline etc), before referring it to the independent panel.

The club puts in video and written evidence.

The panel judges it on on that. They don't talk to the referee (there are no oral testimonies or interviews or anything.)

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Telegraph article, the ref's were sent out a reminder regarding red card offences, because of ones that had been missed - how many did we see in the weeks leading up to Xmas, Barkley had one, Rojo had at least two.....

Being out of control, excessive force and straight leg......

I'm not sure Feg demonstrated any of those, at least one leg was bent back by the time he got to the tackle, Jones showed more force and both seemed in control.

Looking at it over and over again, I honestly think Jones rolls around because he feels he's in trouble, i'm not saying British players don'e cheat or dive but it's not their "default" reaction, mainly because we're just not very good at it half the time (although we have improved ;biggrin )

There is no way that Feg's tackle is worthy of a three game ban, we've seen players get away with basic Assault before, this was a ref mistake no doubt.

Suze is right that one of the fundamental problems with the FA, refs and the yellow/red card process is that the FA hate to see their men being "in the wrong", I've never understood it to the degree they take it, it's like it at county level as well, all the way up.

They don't seem to understand that it's okay to make a mistake and admit it, most footballers (and fans) will respect that a whole lot more than the cover up's and blatant incompetence we see today.

NEoldiron

MrsGrey, can a complaint be made about the lino not flagging Ibra offside, again using video evidence. If that was not the height of incompetence (or brown envelope) I don't know what is.

IronHerb

There is a benefit of there doubt element. The ref has one chance to see it and may get it wrong. The panel can rectify that mistake if that is their opinion. It's not vilifying the ref, just correcting a mistake if one has been made.

SuzanneClaret

MrsGrey said:

SuzanneClaret said:

T
Which is why they look at what the ref did / did not see rather than what actually happened.

I don't agree with your view, suz. The issue of what the ref did or didn't see is relevant only when the panel is looking at retrospective action to give a red card.

When the issue is to have one cancelled, like now, the panel can effectively second-guess the referee.

When the red card appeal goes to the FA, their only role is to check if the appeal has been made properly (the appeal fee paid, by the deadline etc), before referring it to the independent panel.

The club puts in video and written evidence.

The panel judges it on on that. They don't talk to the referee (there are no oral testimonies or interviews or anything.)

This I did not know. ;doh

SuzanneClaret

There is a very good interview with Howard Webb with Luke Moore (Football Ramble Podcast) where Webb explains that he knew he'd made a mistake in a game (about a sending off I think) not long after he had made it. He wanted to go in front of the cameras post match to explain why he had reached the decision he did and why with a bit of hindsight he thought he had got it wrong. He thought this would help the football watching public at large understand why he had reached his original decision - he was told no by the FA, he could not under any circumstances explain himself to the press.

Giant_Hammer

Interesting interview with Keith Hackett last night. He said that Dean comes across as arrogant and should realise the game is not about him. He also said that it was not a red card and tha Dean made an error in not giving himself thinking time.

SuzanneClaret

;lol

Was Keith Hackett hit by lightening shortly after making that statement?

OldCastleSwift

Tony Gale should never have been sent off. It was on the halfway line for crying out loud!

SuzanneClaret

We still can't mention that mans name in front of my dad...

OldCastleSwift

My brother and I had a fist fight because of that man

Edit - Keith Hackett, not your dad

MrsGrey

NEoldiron said:

MrsGrey, can a complaint be made about the lino not flagging Ibra offside, again using video evidence.

Not under current rules.

MrsGrey

Personally, I don't think refs should have to go through 'trial by media'.

OldCastleSwift

I see Bournemouth have appealed Francis' red card from last night too. That panel could be busy this week

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Hacketts got some front

Also Dean did give himself time, time to watch Jones roll over and over.

He didn't pull the card out straight away by any means

SuzanneClaret

No he didn't which is why I'm convinced he was not going to issue a red, then he saw Jones do a 'platoon' and the ManUtd players whisper sweet nothings in his ear and WAM there's the red.

PrestonHammer

When of the worst ones I have seen was when Alvin Martin got sent off against Sheffield Wednesday, in their half! ;angry