All of which as far as I could see are pro-Remain. What was your point (as a self-confessed Leaver)?
My point was that we seem to be getting ourselves into a lather about trade deals without stopping and thinking about who these deals really benefit. Nothing more and nothing less. It didn`t even occur to me which side of the fence War On Want stood as regards to Brexit. Although it seems logical that movements that tend to be "hard left" would generally support the principal of Remain. Which I find strange as they would also normally support the idea of local democracy.
On the CPS thing and politicians lying or manipulating the truth, I hope George Osbourne is also prosecuted for promising "emergency budget cuts" in the wake of a leave vote...................I think the phrase, to include the words "emergency" and "cuts", was very deliberate.......................
Madcap - but, according to the author of the article, that appears to be 'just a matter of personal opinion' by the then Chancelor of the Exchequer - which he repeated in the commons when challenged. So he wasn't lying - he was probably just joking. As you do when you hold such a high office of state.
Can I say one concrete, undeniable thing I have learnt from the 70 odd pages of discussion. Never, ever question Aslef with regards to the history and procedures of The Labour Party. He will only come back at you with facts and figures. The man is a walking encyclopedia. ;ok
And one final thing. And only out of interest. Aslef, as a Labour man and union member, have you ever been tempted to dally in the philosophy of Anarchism??
So he wasn't lying - he was probably just joking. As you do when you hold such a high office of state.
So is that the choice nowadays - you are either lying or joking? ;nonono
I am no fan of Osborne, far from it. And I think the claim that there would need to be an emergency budget was very badly handled.
However, if you look at the facts, he did make clear that the likely need for an emergency budget was based on the Institute of Fiscal Studies' calculation of a £30bn deficit post-Brexit.
Furthermore, the budget he set out was clearly described as 'illustrative' - however certain sections of the press and leave campaigners chose to describe it, or readers chose not to pay any attention to it.
MadCap, As everyone knows, the Chancellor proposes and Parliament decides. So he wasn't promising what you say he was.
The great thing is, since any individual can make a complaint to the CPS in this regard, we may yet see that issue raised.
PS, Mike, you weren't paying close enough attention. Step away from those mushrooms and read it again.
It's not the case that according to the author of the article, that appears to be 'just a matter of personal opinion' by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer but rather it is the author of the article, reporting what Prof Watt said.
I agree it would be a great shame if the thread had to close.
However, at the moment it's pretty much the only thread on the forum that needs moderating, so it would be helpful if people remembered to act with courtesy and respect towards other members and their views, regardless of how much they may disagree. Sarcasm and snarkiness simply lead to bad feelings, which perpetuate on the thread and can spread to the rest of the forum.
I'm a non-revolutionary economic Marxist, by the way. (Can't be doing with all that historical inevitability stuff.)
The argument is that some things were presented as fact by the various campaigns, but that they knew these were untrue. And that these statements might thus fall within the definition of an 'attempt to mislead voters' - which is prohibited by electoral law.
Going slightly off topic - and I admit that I do not know my facts here as there may be some official standard that can be applied over here - however, given the numeorus "fact checking" that follows nearly every speech and especially public debate - I doubt it.
I had to chuckle at the fun to be had over here if the campaigns of both Trump and Clinton were held at the same level of factual integrity and faced criminal sanction if they pointed to known non-truths.
I fear that nothing would ever get done other than the lawyers getting even richer.
chicago - I have noticed the rise in the 'fact checking' thing in relation to your election ;ok
While welcome, it does actually require people to want to read about the facts.... which may be where it all goes pear-shaped.
During the referendum campaign in the UK, there was a similar thing - I know that the BBC news website did some of it, and The Guardian had a column that took some of the claims and subjected them to fact-checking. I don't know how widespread it was otherwise.
Sadly, it has always been open to folks to do their own fact-checking ... that so many don't suggests that the websites and newspapers are preaching to the converted somewhat.
As an aside, I don't suppose you saw the thing about the Sun recently? They obviously didn't do any fact-checking ;biggrin
What are these positives NE and how can you be sure that we won't be able to have similar if we leave?
Tom, you may choose to read the leaflet NE is pointing towards, but I fear it may be a waste of your time. You see, the issues are far too complicated for the average person to understand, and far too complicated for anyone who chose to vote leave. The issues only seem to present themselves with absolute clarity to those who chose to vote remain.
If yes, go on then. Why don't you do it? Quick as yer like. ;thumbsup
What do you mean you can't, because you aren't empowered to?
Oh, you and Teresa May both, then, it would seem. ;wink
(At the moment, pending the outcome the appeal.)
This whole situation is nuts, it would be crazy to vote on a negotiating position as it will simply show the Europeans the government's position. If there is nothing for the ministers to vote on for or against when it comes to a negotiating position, why would there need to be a vote? Simply send notification ;thumbsup
The later amendment added 'or intends to' as part of that 'prevails upon' wording.
I thought the sticking point might be the meaning of 'free exercise of the franchise' ;hmm
Of course, there is precedent, because in a general election a Lib Dem leaflet that contained false information about Labour was found to come under this category of 'undue influence'.
The difference might be that (as far as I can see from the media coverage of this) the precedent was where one side was telling lies about the other, while in the current case, it is one side just telling lies. Allegedly.
I believe the leaflet in question was produced by the Lib Dems to look like a Labour one and it during the 1992 by-election for Millwall ward on Tower Hamlets council. There was no prosecution as it wasn't an offence under the RotP Act 1983.
Ah well, that's my meal break over, back on the train until 11:10pm.........
You voted Leave, and are happy to consider yourself (rightly, I suspect) individuals who voted what they thought would best realise their personal hopes.
You get snarky (rightly, imo) when you feel that all Leavers are being lumped together into an amorphous mass.
But you make, or approve of, comments that seem to lump all Remainers into an apparently intellectually snobby amorphous mass.
Can you not see a contradiction there?
I think Leave is a terrible, terrible mistake. I'm not going to apologise for not agreeing with those who think otherwise, and I'd appreciate it if those who disagree with that would extend me (and others) the same courtesy of assuming that I am a rational, thoughtful person, as you seem to expect you are entitled to.
Aslef, that's the one (not a general election, my mistake) ;ok
There was no subsequent prosecution because at the time it wasn't an offence, as you say - although it s now, by virtue of the very amendments we were talking about. (apparently)
Mrs Grey - in my own clumsy way I was trying to convey my view that the author of the article was using the quote from Prof Watt to underline the clear inference that the only 'lies' were those contained in the statements made by the Leave campaigners. The author certainly did not appear to challenge the statement so I assumed, given the tone of the article, that they must agree with it.
Mushrooms? What mushrooms - I've harvested plenty but never inhaled! ;whistle
I suppose I was looking it as a report (so expected to be largely factual) rather than any kind of blog/opinion piece. In which case it wouldn't be appropriate for the reporter to write an article 'challenging' anything about the case or Watt's comments.
Of course, reporters can exhibit bias without inserting their own opinion, just by virtue of the facts they select for inclusion and those they choose to exclude. Or by using emotive or perjorative langauge. Without reading the full transcript of the announcement (press release or whatever) I can't say if that has happened here.
If the reporter was intending to bias the reader in favour of a criminal prosecution, they could easily have ignored completely the issue of any potential 'remain' dodginess - but they didn't. They seem to have addressed the question (whether this was asked in a press conference, or via interview, I don't know) 'well, what about the claims of the remain campaign that could be called into question?'.
This post is just to demonstrate how ridiculous this is all getting now, the UK must be the laughing stock of world right now with all the antics, political posturing, backtracking, clarifications etc. etc., that is going on. Labour keep going all Hokey- Cokey, SNP keep making claims (regarding independence and taking the UK's seat in the EU) which the EU have said 'Ain't gonna happen', Lib Dems are clearly anti-Brexit as are others. Meanwhile the Gov't are trying to move things forwards without showing their hand too much, planning to the best deal they can (if they are give the chance to) whilst all the above are more intent on causing maximum disruption in an effort to thwart or derail the leave process. They have already said they are not going for a 'Hard Brexit' despite (particularly the Lib Dems and SNP's) assertions otherwise, they have already pledged to debate the terms and bill (which will require an act of parliament) for leaving once the deal is agreed with the EU, so despite all this arguing about Article 50, MP's were getting the chance to vote on the conditions of the exit deal, at which point they could say no - what they are doing is trying to give themselves two bites of the cherry by putting conditions on the negotiations (which the other party can ignore).
Was watching some political programme (Might have been Andrew Marr or one of the others later in the day), Gina Miller had just finished saying how the PM should be grateful to her for providing a legal vehicle for her to now trigger article 50, asked if she though MP's on the remain side would use this as an opportunity to block triggering Article 50 and try to stop the UK leaving the EU altogether she said no. There then followed a series of excerpts of interviews with Jeremy Corbyn and other high profile labour MP's who were shown clearly saying they would vote to block article 50 if their 'demands' for certain guarantee's are not met by the PM, this was soon added to by Senior Lib Dems and other's all stating similar 'demands'.
When the cameras turned back to her it appeared to me she was having difficulty containing her delight at hearing this 'news' - although Labour have now backtracked again and 'clarified' the situation saying they are not going to block it but only table amendments, which they have called bottom lines (so if they are not in the bill to trigger Article 50 they will not vote for it then - so effectively voting to block it).
They can table as many amendments as they like - how unrealistic is that? They are forgetting the simple fact that the negotiations are a two way street and the EU could easily say 'NO', where would that leave all their 'demands' and amendments then?
Also, just supposing for one minute the Gov'ts appeal is successful, the next step (if it was chosen by the people bringing the case) is to take it to the European court - how ironic is that? can you imagine the outcry there would be then, of course they could just say they will not take it as it is an issue that only the UK courts can decide on.
AdMeus, I couldn't have put it better myself. Everyone is trying to stop this before they even fully know what this is.
I have asked many times why the remainers are so sure that everything will fall apart once we leave the EU but have yet, to my knowledge, been given one fact that proves their fears.
I am happy to admit that I as a leave voter can also not prove that we will be better off out of the EU, however for better or worse economically I do believe that the EU was becoming too big and far reaching and was heading in a direction that was becoming unmanageable. I am also prepared to accept some economic hardship in the short term for what I feel will be better long term prospects.
The problem is that no one really knows just how much this will affect us, but why are why trying to tear our country down in order to stick with the EU? What is it that is so great and that people think will not be the case when/if we leave?
As someone mentioned in an earlier post the EU's reaction to our leave vote has been far from good and has also strengthened my resolve that we are better off out. Also there was another meeting that they kept us out of which was about forming an EU army, something that they know we wouldn't approve. They have said we can't discuss trade deals until we are out but then exclude us from their own future plans, it is double standards.
On an aside, Preston thanks for your comment a page or two back as I like you felt that there was a certain tone to that post. In general I think that the moderation on this site is great, however I do feel that certain posters have been able to get away with posts that may be able to be interperated as more personal. I personally haven't taken any offense and am not out to label anyone or try to get anyone in trouble, however I do feel that as a leave voter I have been lumped into a derogatory category and assumptions made despite my best efforts to discuss this fairly and with an open mind.
I am not going to comment any further on this thread now, apart from to answer any direct questions or comments people may have in response to this post. After that I intend to stick to the rest of the forum which brings me light hearted joy and humor despite being a hammers fan in what is proving to be a dismal season!
I think the reason TM finds herself being so strongly opposed is due to two things that were handled wrongly, the first was her brexit means brexit phrase, because we are intelligent people and if she says that we will ask what type of brexit does she mean? and then she states ah wait and see I cannot tell you yet because it would compromise my negotiating position. Most feel it wouldn't because everyone knows her negotiating position already just as we know the EU position, if anyone is unsure, the UK's is to be able to take back a sizeable amount of control on immigration whilst maintaining the maximum access to free trade, the EU's is to retain the four freedoms in return for access to trade so more countries do not feel they can pick and choose what suits them.
The second was her Tory party speech something in which she failed even acknowledge those who voted remain for a narrative of an over whelming majority - there was no such thing, there was a narrow majority. Her narrative should in my opinion be one of unifying first through respect and recognition of both sides views and a commitment to try and serve both views as best possible within a difficult negotiation. But by seeing only one side as if it were a 80-20 split she cannot fail but alienate, and her job should be to unify a country which has not been this divided for as long as i can remember.
On reflection I feel she has made a political decision or even deal to push through brexit no matter what to appease the leave press, in return they will be sure to support her during the process and in a subsequent general election.
Murdoch made the now famous quote of when I go to Downing street they do as I say, when I go to Europe they take no notice of me..... Well I think TM is doing what he says.
You voted Leave, and are happy to consider yourself (rightly, I suspect) individuals who voted what they thought would best realise their personal hopes.
You get snarky (rightly, imo) when you feel that all Leavers are being lumped together into an amorphous mass.
But you make, or approve of, comments that seem to lump all Remainers into an apparently intellectually snobby amorphous mass.
Can you not see a contradiction there?
I think Leave is a terrible, terrible mistake. I'm not going to apologise for not agreeing with those who think otherwise, and I'd appreciate it if those who disagree with that would extend me (and others) the same courtesy of assuming that I am a rational, thoughtful person, as you seem to expect you are entitled to.
Most definitely a contradiction, I agree. But, speaking for myself, if remain had one, the very next day, despite my disappointment, I would have shrugged my shoulders, let out a sigh and got on with the daily grind. What I would not of done is to start questioning the validity, logic, intelligence and moral fibre of the average remain voter. I also would not have called for another referendum or sought to challenge, by petition, twitter campaign, the courts, or by any other means, the outcome. It was never a best of three. Now this may sound a bit "playground" but I feel that those, myself included, that have gotten personal have done nothing but respond to passive aggressive rhetoric from the remain side. And I`m not talking specifically about this forum but from the real World. As I have said previously, there is a lot of "with all due respect". This is my opinion, I`m not sure if it is shared by others, and it does not excuse the bitterness that prevails.
Also, just supposing for one minute the Gov'ts appeal is successful, the next step (if it was chosen by the people bringing the case) is to take it to the European court - how ironic is that? can you imagine the outcry there would be then, of course they could just say they will not take it as it is an issue that only the UK courts can decide on.
the UK must be the laughing stock of world right now with all the antics, political posturing, backtracking, clarifications etc. etc., that is going on.
Spain had a General Election in December last year then another in June because no one could form a government. Last week they finally appointed a Prime Minister but as they are still unable to form a government they might have to hold a third General Election on Christmas Day.
Perhaps if we didn't spend so much time looking at ourselves and look around at the rest of the world we might realise that other countries have problems a lot worse than ours and we might have a better perspective of things but I suppose being an island is not helpful
In 24 hours time the USA could be facing the prospect of President Trump, I think when it comes to laughing stock of the world we're bottom half of the table.
I notice Nicola Sturgeon has thrown her hat into the legal case now, I suspect it is a strategical entry to provide her more leverage for Scotland to be treated differently from the rest of the UK within negotiations, but not sure the EU would accept that at all, or just provide a context for winning a new independence referendum against a UK imposing a hard brexit upon them.
Aslef - I didn't get chance to continue our discussion yesterday as I had to go out. I just wanted to ask why you thought Unite included Ed Milliband literature in every ballot paper to unite members in 2010?
I know you have said it didn't make much difference as half voted for someone else but another way of spinning that is that he got as many votes as all the other candidates put together from Unite members, and this made the difference as his victory was 50.65% to 49.35%. Do you think the Unite vote made the difference?
Aslef - I didn't get chance to continue our discussion yesterday as I had to go out. I just wanted to ask why you thought Unite included Ed Milliband literature in every ballot paper to unite members in 2010?
I know you have said it didn't make much difference as half voted for someone else but another way of spinning that is that he got as many votes as all the other candidates put together from Unite members, and this made the difference as his victory was 50.65% to 49.35%. Do you think the Unite vote made the difference?
Obviously Unite and GMB wanted to encourage their members to vote for Ed although it wasn't particularly effective. Only about 10% of Unite's members actually voted while GMB had even less success, like Unite roughly half the members who voted back Ed but only around 6% bothered. How much effect the advertising had is debateable, Ed got 40% with the other big union Unison but with some smaller unions like the builders union UCATT he got around 60%.
Without actually asking people "did you vote for Ed because your union sent you a leaflet/envelope backing him" there is no way of knowing, personally I suspect most people who voted had made their mind up before they received their ballot paper but then I think the power of advertising is grossly overestimated
I was trying to think if this would have any effect on the brexit issue and I think it could. Trump won on the same card as Brexit to a large extent, which was make America great again, anti- immigration and drawing inwards, I think leave and trump were much the same campaigns to a large extent and found support in similar groups of people, and I think this is what is most significant.
I feel that brexit and the Trump victory was pulled off by a unique occurrence which was getting white working class voting alongside the harder right, just as with brexit many areas that would never have voted Tory voted alongside typical Tory areas to tip the balance, likewise trump won by converting democratic areas to trump voting areas, white working class that would never usually vote repuclican.
This now shows a framework for winning an election which is appeal to working class voters from an anti immigration and anti elite position, this could effect us as France will vote next year and Le Pen and the national front will know that this is their ticket to win, the other parties know that should they allow us to even look like benefitting from Brexit in the meantime they are finished. I feel we should not trigger until those elections are over. There are of course German elections but they wouldn't would they? but I said that about Brexit and Trump so I have given up think anything impossible.
Comments
I am no fan of Osborne, far from it. And I think the claim that there would need to be an emergency budget was very badly handled.
However, if you look at the facts, he did make clear that the likely need for an emergency budget was based on the Institute of Fiscal Studies' calculation of a £30bn deficit post-Brexit.
Furthermore, the budget he set out was clearly described as 'illustrative' - however certain sections of the press and leave campaigners chose to describe it, or readers chose not to pay any attention to it.
MadCap, As everyone knows, the Chancellor proposes and Parliament decides. So he wasn't promising what you say he was.
The great thing is, since any individual can make a complaint to the CPS in this regard, we may yet see that issue raised.
PS, Mike, you weren't paying close enough attention. Step away from those mushrooms and read it again.
It's not the case that according to the author of the article, that appears to be 'just a matter of personal opinion' by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer but rather it is the author of the article, reporting what Prof Watt said.
I agree it would be a great shame if the thread had to close.
However, at the moment it's pretty much the only thread on the forum that needs moderating, so it would be helpful if people remembered to act with courtesy and respect towards other members and their views, regardless of how much they may disagree. Sarcasm and snarkiness simply lead to bad feelings, which perpetuate on the thread and can spread to the rest of the forum.
I'm a non-revolutionary economic Marxist, by the way. (Can't be doing with all that historical inevitability stuff.)
I had to chuckle at the fun to be had over here if the campaigns of both Trump and Clinton were held at the same level of factual integrity and faced criminal sanction if they pointed to known non-truths.
I fear that nothing would ever get done other than the lawyers getting even richer.
While welcome, it does actually require people to want to read about the facts.... which may be where it all goes pear-shaped.
During the referendum campaign in the UK, there was a similar thing - I know that the BBC news website did some of it, and The Guardian had a column that took some of the claims and subjected them to fact-checking. I don't know how widespread it was otherwise.
Sadly, it has always been open to folks to do their own fact-checking ... that so many don't suggests that the websites and newspapers are preaching to the converted somewhat.
As an aside, I don't suppose you saw the thing about the Sun recently? They obviously didn't do any fact-checking ;biggrin
;bowdown
If there is nothing for the ministers to vote on for or against when it comes to a negotiating position, why would there need to be a vote? Simply send notification
;thumbsup
She can't 'simply send notification' because the Prime Minister doesn't have the authority to do it!!!
The PM can only act in this regard if Parliament have indicated (by vote) that it wants her to.
When they vote, they aren't being asked to vote on a negotiating position.
They're being asked to vote on whether or not to agree that they want the Article 50 notification to be made.
That (as per the current interpretation of the law) is what is required.
The govt could, of course, get on with it and asl Parliament to give them the thumbs up.
But they have decided not to. They want to appeal the decision, go to the Supreme Court, and hope that it will overturn the initial judgement.
Ah well, that's my meal break over, back on the train until 11:10pm.........
I'm not sure what you want.
You voted Leave, and are happy to consider yourself (rightly, I suspect) individuals who voted what they thought would best realise their personal hopes.
You get snarky (rightly, imo) when you feel that all Leavers are being lumped together into an amorphous mass.
But you make, or approve of, comments that seem to lump all Remainers into an apparently intellectually snobby amorphous mass.
Can you not see a contradiction there?
I think Leave is a terrible, terrible mistake. I'm not going to apologise for not agreeing with those who think otherwise, and I'd appreciate it if those who disagree with that would extend me (and others) the same courtesy of assuming that I am a rational, thoughtful person, as you seem to expect you are entitled to.
There was no subsequent prosecution because at the time it wasn't an offence, as you say - although it s now, by virtue of the very amendments we were talking about. (apparently)
Mushrooms? What mushrooms - I've harvested plenty but never inhaled! ;whistle
I suppose I was looking it as a report (so expected to be largely factual) rather than any kind of blog/opinion piece. In which case it wouldn't be appropriate for the reporter to write an article 'challenging' anything about the case or Watt's comments.
Of course, reporters can exhibit bias without inserting their own opinion, just by virtue of the facts they select for inclusion and those they choose to exclude. Or by using emotive or perjorative langauge. Without reading the full transcript of the announcement (press release or whatever) I can't say if that has happened here.
If the reporter was intending to bias the reader in favour of a criminal prosecution, they could easily have ignored completely the issue of any potential 'remain' dodginess - but they didn't. They seem to have addressed the question (whether this was asked in a press conference, or via interview, I don't know) 'well, what about the claims of the remain campaign that could be called into question?'.
tbh, I found it quite a neutral piece in style.
Was watching some political programme (Might have been Andrew Marr or one of the others later in the day), Gina Miller had just finished saying how the PM should be grateful to her for providing a legal vehicle for her to now trigger article 50, asked if she though MP's on the remain side would use this as an opportunity to block triggering Article 50 and try to stop the UK leaving the EU altogether she said no. There then followed a series of excerpts of interviews with Jeremy Corbyn and other high profile labour MP's who were shown clearly saying they would vote to block article 50 if their 'demands' for certain guarantee's are not met by the PM, this was soon added to by Senior Lib Dems and other's all stating similar 'demands'.
When the cameras turned back to her it appeared to me she was having difficulty containing her delight at hearing this 'news' - although Labour have now backtracked again and 'clarified' the situation saying they are not going to block it but only table amendments, which they have called bottom lines (so if they are not in the bill to trigger Article 50 they will not vote for it then - so effectively voting to block it).
They can table as many amendments as they like - how unrealistic is that? They are forgetting the simple fact that the negotiations are a two way street and the EU could easily say 'NO', where would that leave all their 'demands' and amendments then?
Also, just supposing for one minute the Gov'ts appeal is successful, the next step (if it was chosen by the people bringing the case) is to take it to the European court - how ironic is that? can you imagine the outcry there would be then, of course they could just say they will not take it as it is an issue that only the UK courts can decide on.
I have asked many times why the remainers are so sure that everything will fall apart once we leave the EU but have yet, to my knowledge, been given one fact that proves their fears.
I am happy to admit that I as a leave voter can also not prove that we will be better off out of the EU, however for better or worse economically I do believe that the EU was becoming too big and far reaching and was heading in a direction that was becoming unmanageable. I am also prepared to accept some economic hardship in the short term for what I feel will be better long term prospects.
The problem is that no one really knows just how much this will affect us, but why are why trying to tear our country down in order to stick with the EU? What is it that is so great and that people think will not be the case when/if we leave?
As someone mentioned in an earlier post the EU's reaction to our leave vote has been far from good and has also strengthened my resolve that we are better off out. Also there was another meeting that they kept us out of which was about forming an EU army, something that they know we wouldn't approve. They have said we can't discuss trade deals until we are out but then exclude us from their own future plans, it is double standards.
On an aside, Preston thanks for your comment a page or two back as I like you felt that there was a certain tone to that post. In general I think that the moderation on this site is great, however I do feel that certain posters have been able to get away with posts that may be able to be interperated as more personal. I personally haven't taken any offense and am not out to label anyone or try to get anyone in trouble, however I do feel that as a leave voter I have been lumped into a derogatory category and assumptions made despite my best efforts to discuss this fairly and with an open mind.
I am not going to comment any further on this thread now, apart from to answer any direct questions or comments people may have in response to this post. After that I intend to stick to the rest of the forum which brings me light hearted joy and humor despite being a hammers fan in what is proving to be a dismal season!
The second was her Tory party speech something in which she failed even acknowledge those who voted remain for a narrative of an over whelming majority - there was no such thing, there was a narrow majority. Her narrative should in my opinion be one of unifying first through respect and recognition of both sides views and a commitment to try and serve both views as best possible within a difficult negotiation. But by seeing only one side as if it were a 80-20 split she cannot fail but alienate, and her job should be to unify a country which has not been this divided for as long as i can remember.
On reflection I feel she has made a political decision or even deal to push through brexit no matter what to appease the leave press, in return they will be sure to support her during the process and in a subsequent general election.
Murdoch made the now famous quote of when I go to Downing street they do as I say, when I go to Europe they take no notice of me..... Well I think TM is doing what he says.
There is no 'appeal' from national courts to ECJ.
Perhaps if we didn't spend so much time looking at ourselves and look around at the rest of the world we might realise that other countries have problems a lot worse than ours and we might have a better perspective of things but I suppose being an island is not helpful
In 24 hours time the USA could be facing the prospect of President Trump, I think when it comes to laughing stock of the world we're bottom half of the table.
Aslef - I didn't get chance to continue our discussion yesterday as I had to go out. I just wanted to ask why you thought Unite included Ed Milliband literature in every ballot paper to unite members in 2010?
I know you have said it didn't make much difference as half voted for someone else but another way of spinning that is that he got as many votes as all the other candidates put together from Unite members, and this made the difference as his victory was 50.65% to 49.35%. Do you think the Unite vote made the difference?
Without actually asking people "did you vote for Ed because your union sent you a leaflet/envelope backing him" there is no way of knowing, personally I suspect most people who voted had made their mind up before they received their ballot paper but then I think the power of advertising is grossly overestimated
I feel that brexit and the Trump victory was pulled off by a unique occurrence which was getting white working class voting alongside the harder right, just as with brexit many areas that would never have voted Tory voted alongside typical Tory areas to tip the balance, likewise trump won by converting democratic areas to trump voting areas, white working class that would never usually vote repuclican.
This now shows a framework for winning an election which is appeal to working class voters from an anti immigration and anti elite position, this could effect us as France will vote next year and Le Pen and the national front will know that this is their ticket to win, the other parties know that should they allow us to even look like benefitting from Brexit in the meantime they are finished. I feel we should not trigger until those elections are over. There are of course German elections but they wouldn't would they? but I said that about Brexit and Trump so I have given up think anything impossible.
Had thought to, but wanted to see if it would just be a couple of comments, or be of wider interest.
Thread will be split imminently.