Other games 22/10 onwards

buffybegood

Spurs thought they'd won with a late stoppage time winner at home to Sporting, only for it to be ruled out for offside after a very lengthy VAR check. Shame 😂🤣😂. Conte sent off in the aftermath.

MrsGrey

Can I just check.
Are we pretty much ok with Var ruling on/off side these days. In that the technology is reliable? My own view is that they get that right, now.

So ... No room for debate?

Hamstew

It's right but can take far too long sometimes. Imo.

MrsGrey

Fair point.

But, imo, if we have a system to make the judgement then it's best to let it do its job.

Otherwise, what's the point.

Hamstew

Except for that game where the longer it took the funnier it was.

Hamstew

MrsGrey said:

Fair point.

But, imo, if we have a system to make the judgement then it's best to let it do its job.

Otherwise, what's the point.

No I know I just feel like The replay of the goal took about 10 seconds after the goal to be shown. I guess if it's super tight they need to be super sure. Just felt like it took an age to me just to say offside or not

buffybegood

Generally I think it's working OK for offside atm. There seem to be acceptable guidelines as to what part of the body can be "offside", and the drawing of the lines seems to be causing a lot less debate than in previous seasons; personally, as long as they get that bit done consistently (ie what parts of the body to use and when the ball is played) then I've no issue with marginal calls being made for offside which is something there were a lot of complaints about when VAR first came in.

But yeah, strange that Conte and others went ballistic when it was ruled out, as it was a matter of fact not opinion.

Lukerz

It also doesn’t help when the view the viewers get with the lines is from an angle that makes it distorted with where Kane is in relation to the ball. A direct ‘in line’ view would make that more conclusive.

Slacker

Regarding my earlier posts about burning VAR, I’ve changed my mind.

IronHerb

Lukerz said:

It also doesn’t help when the view the viewers get with the lines is from an angle that makes it distorted with where Kane is in relation to the ball. A direct ‘in line’ view would make that more conclusive.

But how many cameras would you need for that?

IronHerb

buffybegood said:

But yeah, strange that Conte and others went ballistic when it was ruled out, as it was a matter of fact not opinion.

But isn't that the old manager trick of 'I'll hide the generally poor result by becoming the centre of attention' a la Mourinho?

Lukerz

I think what is clear is there needs to be a more streamlined way of showing those offside calls. It‘s been in use 3 years now. Those squiggly clip-art lines that are drawn down to a rough zone of where the knee is & head is & then the line goes across the pitch. It doesn’t look convincing.

buffybegood

Lukerz said:

Those squiggly clip-art lines that are drawn down to a rough zone of where the knee is & head is & then the line goes across the pitch. It doesn’t look convincing.

Tbh I find them clear and easily understandable and can't think of a better way to do it. They usually try a few different body parts to find the furtherest forward/back and, so far this season (until last night) have been providing quick and not often moaned about decisions.

It's the handball decisions, largely due to the change in guidelines, that have caused most controversy this season, apart from a few cases of extremely poor decision making in calling fouls.

chicagohammer

I think that I would rather see var used for clear and obvious errors, for me, when the Var viewer has various angles and still takes an age to decide, the attacker cannot clearly be offside so should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I understand that it opens the door to possible inconsistency but hopefully we will get to a stage where “clear and obvious” becomes generally understood.

My pet peeve is where the assistant flags really late when the player is clearly offside, there have been a number of occasions where collisions between attacker and defender results which could easily lead to injury, if the assistant spots an offside, the flag should go up immediately

thornburyiron

It would have to be a blatant offside though because if he prevented a legitimate goal then that’s worse than having one ruled out.

buffybegood

chicagohammer said:

I think that I would rather see var used for clear and obvious errors, for me, when the Var viewer has various angles and still takes an age to decide, the attacker cannot clearly be offside so should be given the benefit of the doubt.

In offside cases, where it's fact not opinion, then it doesn't have to be a clear and obvious error, imo, otherwise all the marginal decisions will go the way of the Sky 6 as they used to; ref gives them their usual "benefit of the doubt" whether attacking or defending, and VAR doesn't overturn as it's not "clear and obvious".

Usually this season the VAR offside decisions have been arrived at fairly quickly, last night's Spurs' disallowed goal being the exception rather than the rule.

IronHerb

I've enjoyed watching SSN this afternoon with all the ex Spurs players screaming about the offside decision. Decision was correct, the time taken was too long, but I guess if the situation was reversed Spurs would have quietly accepted it even if the check wasn't thorough.

Fortuneseeker

My pet peeve is where the assistant flags really late when the player is clearly offside, there have been a number of occasions where collisions between attacker and defender results which could easily lead to injury, if the assistant spots an offside, the flag should go up immediately

Chicago, Yes just waiting for a really bad injury to occur due to the way the Assistants are being told to operate. You can see the scenario Kane goes through, when clearly offside, the opposition goalkeeper takes him out knee high crippling Harry & no further action can be taken as the flag eventually gets raised.

alderz

I think in that scenario there would still be a red card for violent conduct, because that can happen when play is dead anyway.

Fortuneseeker

@alderz, You are probably correct but can you see the fallout after Kane is sidelined for several months with a knackered knee?

alderz

Yeah I don’t disagree at all. It really winds me up when it’s blatantly obvious and they don’t flag. I just think lost assistants can’t be trusted to get it right enough to not flag early. I could easily imagine us having a great opportunity flagged as blatantly offside, only to find that the attacker was never offside at all.

buffybegood

Apparently VAR as used in the CL is working on/trialing automatic offside detection, so hopefully in a few years any such offsides will be detected much earlier and blown by the ref (having been notified by earpiece or watch).

MrsGrey

I'm intrigued how that might work. Because there's so much more to look at to judge an offside offence than just if the player is in an offside position. Will there be a tracker in the ball to synchronise the time with when it was kicked and when the player went into an offside position.

And what about more complex goal mouth scrambles where players might be coming back from an offside position, or if it's not clear who was the last player to touch the ball...

I have to say that I think any automatic detection technology will be quite limited in its usefulness.

buffybegood

MrsGrey said:

I'm intrigued how that might work. Because there's so much more to look at to judge an offside offence than just if the player is in an offside position. Will there be a tracker in the ball to synchronise the time with when it was kicked and when the player went into an offside position.

And what about more complex goal mouth scrambles where players might be coming back from an offside position, or if it's not clear who was the last player to touch the ball...

I have to say that I think any automatic detection technology will be quite limited in its usefulness.

I think it would be really useful in the scenario we outlined initially, where it's obvious that the player is offside and runs through and might then get injured or injure someone else. For more complex goal-line scrambles there probably wouldn't be time for it to be processed, ref informed, and whistle blown before the action is over anyway so you'd revert to a manual analysis of the play.

MrsGrey

https://www.fifa.com/technical/media-releases/semi-automated-offside-technology-to-be-used-at-fifa-world-cup-2022-tm

Interesting.

Although it sounds like a major aim is to show the fans a convincing image.

buffybegood

For sure, but give it a few years and the technology should improve and be more usable in real time.

Fortuneseeker

buffy, I don't know whether you saw the Benfica v Juventus game on Tuesday? The Juventus goal was given by the referee as there was no goal line technology. It was quite confusing as there was a scramble in the six yard box & it looked to me as if Kean was offside & interfering with play & he got involved in trying to score in the melee.

chicagohammer

MrsGrey said:

https://www.fifa.com/technical/media-releases/semi-automated-offside-technology-to-be-used-at-fifa-world-cup-2022-tm

Interesting.

Although it sounds like a major aim is to show the fans a convincing image.

I must admit that I checked the date on the article to see if it was April 1st

buffybegood

Fortuneseeker said:

buffy, I don't know whether you saw the Benfica v Juventus game on Tuesday? The Juventus goal was given by the referee as there was no goal line technology. It was quite confusing as there was a scramble in the six yard box & it looked to me as if Kean was offside & interfering with play & he got involved in trying to score in the melee.

No, I didn't see it. Even without goal line technology, any goal would surely have been checked by VAR, and from there you just do the best you can with the available information, it's all you can do really, isn't it?