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IronHerb

"There are plenty of black players in the WSL but not all of them are English."

And that's the point. The lack of opportunity is further down the ladder.

PrestonHammer

Also there were no players from London in the squad or team. Maybe there is a problem in not enough girls are playing football there due to no girl football teams or coaching. Now that the women have won something, the floodgates will open and more girls will be able to play the game.

alderz

PrestonHammer said:

Now that the women have won something, the floodgates will open and more girls will be able to play the game.

If it's funded properly.

I read the other day that only something like 60% of schools offer football as a standard PE sport for girls, and only like 40% have a girls football team (these figures might not be 100% because I can't find the thing I read, it was definitely in this ballpark though).

alderz

PrestonHammer said:

Also there were no players from London in the squad or team.

This is an aside, but Lotte Wubben-Moy and Chloe Kelly are from London

Yeoldhammer

alderz said:

PrestonHammer said:

Now that the women have won something, the floodgates will open and more girls will be able to play the game.

If it's funded properly.

I read the other day that only something like 60% of schools offer football as a standard PE sport for girls, and only like 40% have a girls football team (these figures might not be 100% because I can't find the thing I read, it was definitely in this ballpark though).

It certainly should be an option for any young girl to take up the sport across all schools.

It needs to be funded properly but this needs to come from the FA, if that funding comes from the government at the expense of Hockey / Rugby and other sports which already struggle against Football in both the Women's and Men's game then I would view that as an issue.

(I also am not going to accept the "they all should be funded well line" because the reality is this current government and successive governments will not get that balance right and it will 100% end up at the expense of another sport, the Olympics funding shows this to be the case currently, Sports left at the wayside in favour of specific other sports)

MrsGrey

alderz said:

I don't think anybody is disputing that the squad is picked on ability, obviously that's the case. The conversation point, as Herb points out, is one of opportunity.

Yes. I was just surprised that it was so mono- racial. You see it a lot in certain sports but I was surprised by it in football.

MrsGrey

IronHerb said:

I think the argument / debate was based on opportunity, or lack thereof.

Yes, and I assume a range of other factors that influence participation.

thornburyiron

To go towards proving my point earlier we’ve just signed another black player from Germany who is French.
If more black girls take up football as a result of this win then more will make it into the squad and team.
What we don’t want is people to campaign for quotas so that we have to have token black players regardless of their ability having to be included.
The squad and team is already well covered in the diversity area in that a number of them, possibly the majority, are of the LGBT etc etc community.

IronHerb

Who has asked for quotas?

thornburyiron

Nobody as far as I’m aware but there were some fairly vociferous social media posts a couple of weeks ago lambasting the team for having no black players.
It doesn’t take much for campaign groups to kick off. There are already calls for the entire squad to be made dames or at least MBE’s on the basis that not only did they win but they had the highest attendance record for a final beating that of the men last year. This of course overlooked the fact that last year the attendance was covid restricted and tickets this year were of the order of £15 compared to anything up to £250 last.

alderz

I don’t think I’ve seen or heard anyone advocating for quotas. Nobody is suggesting the team isn’t or shouldn’t be picked on merit. The point comes back to why aren’t there as many non-white players succeeding at that level so they are picked. And I think there are really clear arguments that participation and opportunity are a factor in that.

thornburyiron

If the opportunities are there for white players then they’re there for black players. Participation up to now has probably been the most contributory factor.
I think similar applies to Asians as very few seem to go down the football route but more cricket.

OutcastLondoner

I bet you at least 100 times more young South Asians in this country play football than play cricket.

Cricket is better at getting involved in communities to identify players. My school had England and Essex county players giving training sessions to some of our cricket players - even when some of those cricket players preferred football and were better at it than cricket. They still faced overt racism in cricket but it's also just a smaller pool of players so a few are able to succeed.

There's been research into football scouting and the preconceived ideas a lot of scouts have that is part of South Asian players not getting through.

When people talk about opportunity, I believe it's the same thing in the women's game. Are the same opportunities to play, be coached, be scouted available in all areas of the country?

alderz

thornburyiron said:

If the opportunities are there for white players then they’re there for black players.

I think that’s an incredibly flawed logic. For everyone to have equal access and opportunity, society needs to be equal. We’re talking about a society in which Oxford University found that people with Nigerian sounding names have to apply for 70% more jobs, and a society where government published statistics tell us that black people are stopped and searched by the police up to 10 times more frequently than white people. Just saying “the opportunity is there so everyone can access it” is really narrow thinking, IMO.

IronHerb

thornburyiron said:

If the opportunities are there for white players then they’re there for black players. Participation up to now has probably been the most contributory factor.
I think similar applies to Asians as very few seem to go down the football route but more cricket.

Really?
I suspect the Asian players at Yorkshire CC thought that the opportunities were there for them too. More and more Asian cricket teams are forming their own Asian only leagues because of the abuse they receive.

Fortuneseeker

I coach youth football & at my club we have 11 girls teams from 8-18 years old. The key comparison is at the clubs which come from predominantly black or asian areas the boys teams thrive but there are very few girls teams. Now whether that is because there isn’t the interest from the girls or it could be there are no coaches willing to run the teams?

IronHerb

That's a fair point Fotyune. I believe there is a shortage of coaches in general and to suddenly to be in a position to increase the need by 50% is an issue. Same with schools. The PE staff are already committed to their sports teams and to then ask them to find timetable and extra curricula space for more teams to organise will take time.

And finally, with everyone saying it should be made easier to get fans to watch WSL and other women league matches why do SKY put on City v Arsenal at 7pm on a Sunday evening? Lot of hollow words being spouted.

I need a lie down.

thornburyiron

It’s got nothing to do with society per se. If a black girl wants to play football there’s nothing stopping her from going along to the same clubs as a white girl. If the club refuses to give them an opportunity then there is recourse available to them.
My grandson plays for his town’s junior sides and also the county. His father is one of the coaches at both and has often said no matter how much they try they cannot encourage black girls to join or trial for the girls teams. In fact few black boys go along despite Leroy’s son being in my grandson’s teams and Leroy himself trying to encourage them.

MrsGrey

Or other factors such as family/cultural/peer expectations... which may be determining how 'interested' the girls are in participating. Other factors like access, transport - maybe parental support is needed for kids to get to training and there is less of it given to girls?

It's complicated.

Fortuneseeker

IronHerb, I agree. Didn’t Ian Wright say something the other night about having to register with the home team to be able to attend a match as an away fan. None of this just turning up & paying at the gate, some of the venues could accommodate that option but they make it harder than it should be.

PrestonHammer

I'm going back to the early nineties, but there was an Indian boy who was very good player at my mates school. Arsenal and Chelsea wanted to sign him but his parents wouldn't let him, they wanted him to focus on his studies. I know it's only one example but maybe it's one reason why South Asian kids don't seem to get to Academies.

BubblesNeverDies

Wasn't the German team made up of only white players as well?

Fortuneseeker

BND, No Anyomi came on as a sub is a black player.

thornburyiron

As did the English girl.

alderz

Yeah, which I think emphasises the point, doesn’t it? 1 of 23 German players non-white, 3 of 23 English players non-white. Compare that to the mens teams, and I think there’s a pretty stark contrast.

Dodger58

I live in hope that all players are picked on merit. Merit extends to how they fit into the coach’s preferred style of play and alternate plans, which very much includes considerations of how they interact with all members of the squad - an apparent strength of the Lionesses (and last season’s Hammers). Race, religion, sexual orientation, etc should all be immaterial, assuming the individuals themselves can also see past them.

thornburyiron

Not sure the contrast is that stark. This was our lineup for the final.

Pickford; Walker, Stones, Maguire; Trippier, Phillips, Rice, Shaw; Mount, Sterling, Kane (c

Granted the penalty failures who came on were black but our starting 11 was pretty much white and was what Southgate thought was the best for the job.

Fortuneseeker

Nineteen of the 23 players in England's squad play in the Women's Super League - and 18 of those play for Manchester City, Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea.

Just to show it's not only the mens team that need reinforcements. West Ham Womens team have had another player leave - Tameka Yallop has become the eighth player to leave West Ham United so far this summer. She joins Gilly Flaherty, Zaneta Wyne, Lois Joel, Anna Leat, Katerina Svitková, Emily Moore and Adriana Leon on the exit list at The Chigwell Construction Stadium. Three of these players are internationals. Although they have signed seven players only one is a current international at a higher ranked Country. Most of the new recruits are young where I believe we should be trying to sign a few more established players.

IronHerb

thornburyiron said:

Not sure the contrast is that stark. This was our lineup for the final.

Pickford; Walker, Stones, Maguire; Trippier, Phillips, Rice, Shaw; Mount, Sterling, Kane (c

Granted the penalty failures who came on were black but our starting 11 was pretty much white and was what Southgate thought was the best for the job.

Not sure where this is going but 11 of the 26 man Euro 2020 squad had ethnicities other than white. To me the contrast is very stark.

PrestonHammer

IMO, in this day and age, this really shouldn't be a talking point. Much like having gay players in the mens game, shouldn't have to "announce" their coming out. Hopefully we get there.