The Hammers ⚒ v The Peacocks 🦚 - Sunday 16th January, 🕑

Lukerz

I must admit I find this selective transfer strategy a bit odd. I am all for not signing players for the sake of it, but we’re not the number one club in world football, global superpower. We must be able to identify a couple of players in defence & up front, in world football, who can improve us.

Lukerz

OldCastleSwift said:

Yeah, I'm still annoyed at this one. I've become better at letting defeats go, but this one is grating on me.

I get that we'll lose games, but this was an important one against an out-of-form and decimated Leeds team. As has been said already, by myself and others, our options to influence the game were once again poor. Moyes is clearly naming players on the bench just to make up the numbers; Kral and Oko-Flex being the most obvious. He has no intention of using them and if he doesn't trust them then he should have pushed to improve the squad.

Certainly the hardest loss I have taken since Brentford

Slacker

Hands down Leeds deserved that win. With all their injuries and other stuff, to come down to us and play with that energy and spirit was very impressive.
Ok it’s disappointing to lose that chance of getting nearer to Chelsea and further away from the pack,but sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and accept that the opposition deserved it.

Hopefully it’s a little bump in the road for us in what’s already been a great season.

EXETERHAMMER

We were awful and we just did not get a grip all game. Nobody had a good game for us. Leeds also looked clueless in my opinion which makes things worse.
We absolutely need signings. 16 days to go.

OldCastleSwift

I mean, you can't just trust to luck that your first eleven will stay fit all season. Particularly with extra games this season and Covid still knocking about. But it feels like that's what we've done.

We consciously started this season with no genuine cover or competition for Antonio or Cresswell. Yes, we have players that can fill in, but as soon as both are fit, they play. They basically have zero competition.

I thought we'd addressed that very issue at CM, but Kral hasn't played much at all when Rice and Soucek haven't been available. If he's not considered good enough, fine, but why sign him? How much due diligence did we do? Or was it just that he was available on loan and it was him or no-one?

The signing of Vlasic can be questioned, too. £30m, basically half of our budget, on a player that has had little influence. He was effectively Lingard's replacement, remember; a key player in a key position, but half way through the season and he's been a peripheral figure with, what, one goal and one assist?

Masuaku and Yarmolenko haven't been effective PL players for a couple of seasons now, if, arguably, at all. Noble has been a waning force in this league for years. Diop is 25 now but has regressed since his first season and has been Moyes’ 4th choice for at least 18 months. If he's not deemed good enough to start, then should he be in the first team squad at all?

I know we're still fourth. I know we've had bad luck to lose both first choice CBs at the same time. But after last season I really think we had an opportunity to push on, and I just don't think we did enough in the summer. On paper, the four main singings looked good, but three have barely played. Moyes has often spoken about only signing players that can improve the first team, but only Zouma has been a regular. He clearly doesn't trust Kral, and is only playing Vlasic because Benrahma is unavailable.

What we needed in the summer was a Lingard or an adequate replacement, a staring CB and competion for Antonio, Cresswell and SouDec. We achieved only one of those. I think it's now abundantly clear that we still need to sort the other three and if Moyes and the board want top six again this season, I think they need to address them in the next two weeks.

steve

Agree with most thats been written .But for the life of me cant see why perkins came on instead of Oko -flex what does this kid have to do to get ten mins .And he has been on the bench for a few times and today perkins gets on ahead of him is there someting im missing feel for the kid

OldCastleSwift

Still don't know what Bowen was thinking at the end. Looked easier to score.

Summed up our day, that.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

I must admit I find this selective transfer strategy a bit odd. I am all for not signing players for the sake of it, but we’re not the number one club in world football, global superpower. We must be able to identify a couple of players in defence & up front, in world football, who can improve us.

On this issue, I've just read this quote from Moyes about Antonio and now I'm angry all over again:


“He is one of our key goalscorers. We were chasing the game from 15 minutes in and it was really difficult to change him. He was out on his legs after the game but again what can we do?”


What can we do?! Replace Haller in less than 12 months, for a start. Having one senior striker at the club wasn't forced on him, or the club, and yet they entered a four-competition season with just that.

Pengeman

OldCastleSwift said:

Lukerz said:

I must admit I find this selective transfer strategy a bit odd. I am all for not signing players for the sake of it, but we’re not the number one club in world football, global superpower. We must be able to identify a couple of players in defence & up front, in world football, who can improve us.

On this issue, I've just read this quote from Moyes about Antonio and now I'm angry all over again:


“He is one of our key goalscorers. We were chasing the game from 15 minutes in and it was really difficult to change him. He was out on his legs after the game but again what can we do?”


What can we do?! Replace Haller in less than 12 months, for a start. Having one senior striker at the club wasn't forced on him, or the club, and yet they entered a four-competition season with just that.

Leeds gave many of their young players a chance. We could have tried the same. Some could not have been worse than Diop. Leeds did their homework on Lanzini and didn't give him a chance to spray passes from the deep. Moyes could have tried Kral to shore up the midfield and give abot more protection to the backline, but didn't.
Ah, hindsight is a wonderful thing and of course, if Moyes plan worked he would have been hailed as a genius. Who wants to be a football manager!!

Slacker

Jeez, one defeat and the whinging begins.
I for one trust in the judgement of a bloke who’s turned us from regular relegation candidates to a top six team within two years.

Such short memories.🙄

eskimoking

Let’s not undermine everyone’s opinions by calling it whinging. The criticism is valid today.

thornburyiron

I can see this easily happening again if they continue the way they are. In almost all of the last 6 or more games we have been extremely sluggish for the first 15 minutes of games. Today we were punished, Wednesday we got away with it. Generally we have been able to up our game and get back into it and even go on to win but we need to sort out why we start off so slowly. Is it over confidence, I don’t know.

claretandbluesky

Slacker said:

Jeez, one defeat and the whinging begins.
I for one trust in the judgement of a bloke who’s turned us from regular relegation candidates to a top six team within two years.

Such short memories.🙄

Why do you call it whinging Slacker? whinging is what five year olds do when they can't get what they want. In my view most of the comments on here are backed up by reasonable observations from the posters point of view regard the match in question, on the very thread dedicated to the match. I don't think anyone forgets the progress made this season or defines our whole season by this match, but they seem reasonable observations in the main - to refer to it as whinging shows a lack of respect to posters and indicates you are not overly sure what a match thread is for.

whupathman

too small a squad, we are punching above our weight and got caught out today, a weeks rest before Manure, I predict 3 points

Slacker

claretandbluesky said:

Slacker said:

Jeez, one defeat and the whinging begins.
I for one trust in the judgement of a bloke who’s turned us from regular relegation candidates to a top six team within two years.

Such short memories.🙄

Why do you call it whinging Slacker? whinging is what five year olds do when they can't get what they want. In my view most of the comments on here are backed up by reasonable observations from the posters point of view regard the match in question, on the very thread dedicated to the match. I don't think anyone forgets the progress made this season or defines our whole season by this match, but they seem reasonable observations in the main - to refer to it as whinging shows a lack of respect to posters and indicates you are not overly sure what a match thread is for.

No lack of respect was intended, just my opinion that some seem to have short memories about our club and how far we’ve come.We lost to a team who played better than us today. Would the response have been the same had we won?

claretandbluesky

Obviously not as had we won the performance would have been better. Many have been making the same remarks regard squad imbalance and riding our luck a bit even when we win, but today I think frustrated many and I understand that frustration. I think as Moyes has remarked in the past about wanting more and not settling for a good run, we as fans are doing the same. We don't have any say in matters but we do get to air our views on these forums. As long as the criticism is at least a little reasoned it should not be passed off as whinging in my view.

Pearces_Left_Foot

I thought when we got it back to 2-2 we would go back to a more solid shape and control the game but we kept playing like it was a cup final leaving huge gaps and the game stretched which suited Leeds down to the ground. We probably should have got a draw but we had soucek Zouma ogbonna and benny missing and it showed . Leeds played well and took their chances it happens when we beat them at elland road doing the same thing

OldCastleSwift

Yeah, to say people are 'whinging' is unfair, IMO. When the team plays well, Moyes and the players get praised. It's fair game that when they don't perform, they get criticism.

As I said yesterday, everyone loses games. But for me it's more about how we've done nothing to address the issues that I believe contributed to the defeat.

And that for me is the biggest problem. I do remember where we were under Pellegrini, and I appreciate and admire everything that Moyes has done for the club and how far we've come as a team. It's an incredible achievement. That said, and call me greedy, it could be better. Yes, we're still fourth, but with Arsenal, Spurs and Man U with games in hand, it's with a very light grip. Even Wolves in eighth could match our points tally if they win both their games in hand. I just think that had we pushed a little harder in the summer we could be comfortably fourth with a genuine chance of Champions League football next season.

As it is, with players having to play every game because of a lack of options, we may not even get into the EL. Fatigue and injuries have caught up with us and that, IMO, is the result of having a small, unbalanced squad. If we don't get EL football, then there's a good chance Rice and Bowen could be pushing for a move in the summer. Soucek would have suitors. Zouma too, probably. Lose them and we could be back to square one.

I saw some comments from Rice yesterday about how it's better that we're fourth and looking up rather than sixteenth and looking down, and he's absolutely right. Maybe in a couple of days I'll feel differently but yesterday hurt. More than Brentford. More than Southampton. And I think it's because we've had three months since the summer window closing and half of the January window to identify and negotiate for players that could help our cause, but instead our manager is bemoaning the fact that we have to run Antonio into the ground each week.

alderz

Have we considered this Moyes has said that because he’s trying to push the owners to spend a bit?

OldCastleSwift

alderz said:

Have we considered this Moyes has said that because he’s trying to push the owners to spend a bit?

Yes, that did cross my mind. But by his own admission he's very picky. I think maybe there needs to be some flexibility on both sides.

In the summer Moyes was reportedly keen on En-Nesyri, but Sevilla wanted £40m for him. It feels like we ended up in a situation whereby Sullivan would never meet that valuation and Moyes wouldn't accept anyone else. And as a result we've ended up having to sub on Andriy Yarmolenko every single game.

I had hoped Rob Newman's appointment would have improved the way we do things, but so far there's zero evidence of that.

buffybegood

steve said:

Agree with most thats been written .But for the life of me cant see why perkins came on instead of Oko -flex what does this kid have to do to get ten mins .And he has been on the bench for a few times and today perkins gets on ahead of him is there someting im missing feel for the kid

Could it be the ridiculous Covid rule? Perkins has already played for the first team, and so has to be included as a senior player when counting available players. I wouldn't put it past us for that to be a consideration.

Kuchinghammer

The Leeds we played in the F.A.Cup and the Leeds we played yesterday were as different as a poodle and a rottweiler. They harried Lanzini out of the game, exploited our weak left side, and made sure Bowen hardly had a sniff of the ball. The mistakes etc mostly happened because Leeds played an excellent game, rather than West Ham being useless. To draw level twice was a pretty gutsy effort I thought, but it made their third goal seem even harder to take. I'm still in a right moody ☹

thornburyiron

Their third goal was ridiculous. When they broke, Harrison was a taxi ride away from any defender and that should never happen whoever is playing in defence.

IronHerb

OldCastleSwift said:

Lukerz said:

I must admit I find this selective transfer strategy a bit odd. I am all for not signing players for the sake of it, but we’re not the number one club in world football, global superpower. We must be able to identify a couple of players in defence & up front, in world football, who can improve us.

On this issue, I've just read this quote from Moyes about Antonio and now I'm angry all over again:


“He is one of our key goalscorers. We were chasing the game from 15 minutes in and it was really difficult to change him. He was out on his legs after the game but again what can we do?”


What can we do?! Replace Haller in less than 12 months, for a start. Having one senior striker at the club wasn't forced on him, or the club, and yet they entered a four-competition season with just that.

Or get Antonio fit maybe.

BubblesNeverDies

Diop had a shocker especially for their second goal and I still don't understand why Fornals was subbed instead of Lanzini. Surely Kral for Manu would have made more sense.

OldCastleSwift

IronHerb said:

OldCastleSwift said:

Lukerz said:

I must admit I find this selective transfer strategy a bit odd. I am all for not signing players for the sake of it, but we’re not the number one club in world football, global superpower. We must be able to identify a couple of players in defence & up front, in world football, who can improve us.

On this issue, I've just read this quote from Moyes about Antonio and now I'm angry all over again:


“He is one of our key goalscorers. We were chasing the game from 15 minutes in and it was really difficult to change him. He was out on his legs after the game but again what can we do?”


What can we do?! Replace Haller in less than 12 months, for a start. Having one senior striker at the club wasn't forced on him, or the club, and yet they entered a four-competition season with just that.

Or get Antonio fit maybe.

By that logic we only need eleven players in the squad. Just keep them fit for 40+ games a season.

The point is that Moyes appears to be saying that we have no choice but to play Antonio every game. Like it's been forced on the club. Between them, he and the board could have mitigated the need to do that by signing competition, and they chose not to. You can't go into a season with one senior striker and then complain when he's fatigued.

Slacker

I’ve not seen Moyes’ comment about Antonio being out on his feet, but if that’s what he said maybe it was within the context of his main criticism of having to play an extra game in midweek?And that is due to the Premier League making a complete Horlicks of this Covid/postponement situation.
I agree we do need reinforcements up front but I think he knows that as he’s the manager and we’re not.

OldCastleSwift

Slacker said:

I’ve not seen Moyes’ comment about Antonio being out on his feet, but if that’s what he said maybe it was within the context of his main criticism of having to play an extra game in midweek?And that is due to the Premier League making a complete Horlicks of this Covid/postponement situation.
I agree we do need reinforcements up front but I think he knows that as he’s the manager and we’re not.

To be fair, I hadn't thought of that. But Moyes must have known multiple games in a week were a likelihood given we started the season in four competitions. Covid postponements probably weren't in clubs' thoughts in August, but midweek games are always a risk with cup replays.

OutcastLondoner

BubblesNeverDies said:

Diop had a shocker especially for their second goal and I still don't understand why Fornals was subbed instead of Lanzini. Surely Kral for Manu would have made more sense.

The corner? I can't see Diop's fault there. The guy who won the header ran in between both Diop and Dawson. Diop was at fault for the fourth goal that was ruled offside. The third one I don't think was his fault. If we're going to pass out for the back - which we did a lot - our midfielders need to offer a simple option. Instead Rice is between two Leeds midfielders out of reach and Fornals is asking for him to play a difficult pass on his left that could've easily gone wrong because he'd be immediately pressed by two Leeds players. No one came to pick it up easily. Diop player the slightly longer one to Vlasic and it wasn't perfect but it wasn't that bad. Vlasic was slack in dealing with it.

Diop clearly is playing badly and needs a replacement but it feels like the default reaction is that it's always Diop's fault. I don't know how he's getting more criticism than Vlasic on that.

OldCastleSwift

Diop was partly at fault for the second, IMO. He didn't attack the ball at all and almost backed off Ayling. That said, Cresswell did nothing to track Harrison so I'd say both were at fault.

I thought Diop, Coufal and Cresswell all had bad games yesterday, and when three of your four defenders struggle it's generally not going to end well.