Eagles 🦅 v Hammers ⚒ - Saturday 1st January, 5:30pm

Lukerz

I think considering we had no Zouma, Ogbonna, Cresswell & Fornals, & have had a lot of games over the Xmas period, you have to be happy with the result, even if we made hard work second half & were a little fortunate to be 0-3 up at half time.

They did have a lot of attacking options despite the two unavailable players. Ayew, Benteke, Edouard, Olise, Eze, Mateta against Dawson & Diop with an out of position Johnson at LB & Masuaku second half.

Our quality was the difference. Benrahma’s cross, Antonio’s movement & that bit of play from Rice & Lanzini. The fact we have picked up 7 points with Dawson & Diop at CB over Xmas, plus Masuaku/Johnson at LB, is a very good effort.

BubblesNeverDies

OldCastleSwift said:

What's Arabic for "what are you doing?"

ماذا تفعل؟
madha tafaeala?
You're welcome.

Lukerz

Our CBs get a lot of stick & rightly so. They are experienced players & should be defending better than they are, especially the lack of concentration. But they are being very exposed at the moment. Our midfield two is not, for me, protecting them at all. How many times yesterday did Edouard pick the ball up in that gap between the CBs & CMs? That’s not Dawson’s job to sort, that’s down to Rice & Soucek to get back in there & shield the back two & sit on Edouard. If Diop or Dawson deals with that, the back line becomes massively disjointed. Same thing happened when he hit the crossbar. He’s free on the edge of the box; Rice & Soucek not marking anybody.

Our CBs are very limited & we definitely need to improve them but the CMs must know they are weaker & need to do more to help them. Shock horror they looked a lot more solid against Watford when Nobes just sat in front of them all game. Against Arsenal, Spurs, Southampton & Palace they have looked really exposed &, when that happens, they don’t cover themselves in glory as they are not that good. I am not sure why they are not being protected. I am not sure if it is due to Soucek being the more regular ‘sitter’ this season & he is just not as good at it as Rice.

Think Moyes needs to get on Rice & Soucek & ask a bit more from them. But we are letting in a lot of goals from midfield runners this season. If they can’t sort it, maybe we replace Benrahma with Noble or Kral & go to a proper 4-3-3/4-5-1 until we get another option at CB. Or, we go to a back 3 when Cresswell is back with Diop on the right & Dawson in the middle.

EXETERHAMMER

I agree with some of this. But it does not excuse Diop in particular not dealing with crosses. He was beaten easily at least three times.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz said:

Our CBs get a lot of stick & rightly so. They are experienced players & should be defending better than they are, especially the lack of concentration. But they are being very exposed at the moment. Our midfield two is not, for me, protecting them at all. How many times yesterday did Edouard pick the ball up in that gap between the CBs & CMs? That’s not Dawson’s job to sort, that’s down to Rice & Soucek to get back in there & shield the back two & sit on Edouard. If Diop or Dawson deals with that, the back line becomes massively disjointed. Same thing happened when he hit the crossbar. He’s free on the edge of the box; Rice & Soucek not marking anybody.

Our CBs are very limited & we definitely need to improve them but the CMs must know they are weaker & need to do more to help them. Shock horror they looked a lot more solid against Watford when Nobes just sat in front of them all game. Against Arsenal, Spurs, Southampton & Palace they have looked really exposed &, when that happens, they don’t cover themselves in glory as they are not that good. I am not sure why they are not being protected. I am not sure if it is due to Soucek being the more regular ‘sitter’ this season & he is just not as good at it as Rice.

Think Moyes needs to get on Rice & Soucek & ask a bit more from them. But we are letting in a lot of goals from midfield runners this season. If they can’t sort it, maybe we replace Benrahma with Noble or Kral & go to a proper 4-3-3/4-5-1 until we get another option at CB. Or, we go to a back 3 when Cresswell is back with Diop on the right & Dawson in the middle.

While I do agree in some respect, the problem is the individual errors and they are individual errors

Like diops yesterday were just terrible, he didn't react at all to the first (no aware of what was going on around him) and then he made a rash judgement on the 2nd, there is nothing that Rice/Soucek could have done for either unless they were literally sitting on the same line as the CB which isn't there job

And the other week at Watford, Diop was in line with the other back 4 members then charged out to the CF and got turned which led to the goal

The CM should help protect the back 4, but the way I've always viewed it was that CM should be tracking midfield runners whereas the CB should be looking after the striker, but the issue for us atm isn't the midfield runners it's strikers running off our CB because they don't communicate nor are they good enough

For what its worth, I think that Diop has largely been at fault and don't think saying that it's just because he's at LCB that it can be excused as there are plenty of clubs that use right footers at LCB, he needs to adjust his game

Diop lacks the intelligence for the position and Dawson lacks the pace/athleticism to take on a striker 1 vs 1 once Diop has overcommited.

433 would be a good idea though, but we could lose some ability going forward, Moyes likes having someone in the pocket close to Antonio as Antonio, for as good as he is, can often be exposed

Most of yesterday it looked like a hybrid 442 without the ball as Lanzini was closing down the CB to stop them playing out

Lukerz

Yeah but I can remember a few goals where midfield runners have scored; Elyounoussi (edge of box) Eduoard (he was playing as a No.10 yesterday), Mount, Smith-Rowe. It’s not constant & they are making basic errors too but, for me, if you have an obvious weak link & have no way of solving it via personnel, you reinforce the area to try & cover the weakness.

Look at how many goals we have let in from midfield options (Murphy, Gallagher, Tielemans, Lingard, Raphina, Gundogan, Fernandinho, Jiminez - wasn’t he on edge of the box when he scored v us? - etc).

Hamstew

Also agree with some of this. We give up possession too easy especially when we are in front by 2 goals or more. However there is no denying that if it it wasn't for our CBs not doing their jobs yesterday we win 3-0. Was simple stuff that Oggy and Zouma would have comfortably dealt with imo.

Hamstew

I actually think Dawson does an ok job for us but Diop is just not good enough

Lukerz

I agree with most of that but I do still think, when you watch the first goal they got, that shape is shambolic. We’re 3-0 up in the 82nd minute. They have how many strikers on the pitch? Was it 4 or 5? Mateta, Ayew, Edouard, Olise? I don’t really feel it’s fair to have two CBs & Coufal at that stage of the game in your box & no midfield options dropping in their either. Rice, again, is just doing nothing. He’s stood outside the box, going over to the crosser who already has Vlasic & Masuaku by him. Drop into the box. Soucek IS in the box but marking nobody & just watches Edouard run in behind Diop & score.

Pengeman

We have been conceding too many at goals due to lack of concentration and yesterday was another example. In addition, are now slow off the blocks. Conceded an early goal at Watford and were lucky that Palace did not score within the first minute. This does not bode well. I am sure coaches are looking at it but at the it is down to players' attributes and mentality.

IronHerb

Before we completely throw Diop and Dawson under a fleet of busses take into account that Palace at home have been no mugs this season. Before yesterday their home record was P10 W4 D5 L1 F18 A9 Pts17.
Of course we can do better defensively but Palace exposed our weakness at LB, which became worse once Arthur came on, that added further pressure on the CB's, especially Diop.
I don't think they are as bad a pair as many on here are saying.

Hamstew

Palace are a decent side. Diop still ducked out of the way regardless of how good they are though.

Slacker

Arthur made the most tackles even though he only played 1/2 a game. Just saying.
I don’t think he’s the bad defender most seem to think.
* puts on tin hat.

Dodger58

I think there are two problems here, I agree that Diop doesn’t appear to have the right mental attitude, I think that has always been the case, but the (forlorn) hope was that as he matured he would become a better player - unfortunately he hasn’t.

The other problem is that Diop and Dawson together play too deep, they actually extend the distance between the midfield and themselves and have helped create the extra space that Rice and Soucek ‘appear’ to be ignoring.

I am ignoring Dawson’s lack of pace as a ‘problem’ as that is not something that will change and his sheer bloody mindedness at times makes up for that.

On another thread I said I’d like to see Kral playing alongside Rice & Soucek against the stronger teams. Have him as the midfield defensive shield and give Rice & Soucek. Ore opportunity to roam. I agree with Lukerz that Nobes did a fine job against Watford, but I’d like to see Kral given more opportunity as I believe he will be a good fit for us.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I would quite like Rice sitting almost as a third CB until Zouma is back.

Lukerz

I think you have one option until we get some bodies back in defence:

Fabianski
Coufal - Dawson - Diop - Johnson
Rice - Kral/Noble - Soucek
Bowen - Lanzini
Antonio

I think that works nicely with Benrahma now unavailable & Vlasic yet to fully find form. This also allows both Rice & Soucek scope to get forward, instead of one doing it at the others expense.

I was watching the game with family & I said to them ‘I’d stick Noble on at half time to sure it up a bit’, so was surprised Moyes didn’t until very late.

Lukerz

So, question. Shall I hand over match thread starting for the FA Cup to another & return for the Norwich game or just continue? 🤔

Fortuneseeker

It may not be a factor, putting aside our first choice CB’s being missing, does anyone think that the switch of roles with Rice & Soucek has lost us some of our defensive solidity?

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Lukerz said:

So, question. Shall I hand over match thread starting for the FA Cup to another & return for the Norwich game or just continue? 🤔

I think you continue.

Hamstew

What the Norwich thread I started?
#joking

Lukerz

Hamstew said:

What the Norwich thread I started?
#joking

Good point 🤔

claretandbluesky

In my view there is a place for playing Soucek Rice and Kral together, especially now Benni is away and Fornals may not be available.

Against stronger teams they play a a three to protect the defence in the absence of our strong CB's but one is always free to break on attack, against weaker teams the middle one of Rice or Soucek to play in the Lingard role behind Antonio.

IronHerb

Fortuneseeker said:

It may not be a factor, putting aside our first choice CB’s being missing, does anyone think that the switch of roles with Rice & Soucek has lost us some of our defensive solidity?

Rice played a lot deeper yesterday than of late though.

Hamstew

Lukerz said:

Hamstew said:

What the Norwich thread I started?
#joking

Good point 🤔

When we lose to Leeds I'll just start again. Simples.

PrestonHammer

Or a postponement 🤔

Lukerz

I was talking to a mate about the portrayal of the game & also how Palace fans reacted to the loss with a kind of ‘we slaughtered them’ mentality & I asked the question ‘if West Ham had lost 3-2 at home to Palace, where Palace had 3 shots & scored all of them, we had loads of possession & chances & got a couple of late goals back, would I feel gutted & that we were unlucky?’

We both agreed ‘no’. The focus would be on the poor goals we let in at home & I would probably say fair play to Palace for being clinical. I also don’t think the media portrayal would be ‘unlucky Hammers’, more ‘slump continues, wasteful & sloppy at the back’.

I didn’t sit there when we lost to Brentford & felt we were hard done by & they were lucky. I felt we were wasteful & they defended well & took their chances & we should have started the game better & defended the last minute better.

Palace fans almost feel it was a crime they lost. I feel like they should focus on why they lost, wasteful with their chances & they let in 3 goals. Not sure I’d be overly happy with a performance & result like that at home.

PrestonHammer

I guess our fans are more experienced also.

Hamstew

Lukerz said:

I was talking to a mate about the portrayal of the game & also how Palace fans reacted to the loss with a kind of ‘we slaughtered them’ mentality & I asked the question ‘if West Ham had lost 3-2 at home to Palace, where Palace had 3 shots & scored all of them, we had loads of possession & chances & got a couple of late goals back, would I feel gutted & that we were unlucky?’

We both agreed ‘no’. The focus would be on the poor goals we let in at home & I would probably say fair play to Palace for being clinical. I also don’t think the media portrayal would be ‘unlucky Hammers’, more ‘slump continues, wasteful & sloppy at the back’.

I didn’t sit there when we lost to Brentford & felt we were hard done by & they were lucky. I felt we were wasteful & they defended well & took their chances & we should have started the game better & defended the last minute better.

Palace fans almost feel it was a crime they lost. I feel like they should focus on why they lost, wasteful with their chances & they let in 3 goals. Not sure I’d be overly happy with a performance & result like that at home.

Completely agree. They almost celebrated it as a win at full time just because they got back into it. Maybe it's because we are massive and they are miniscule.

OldCastleSwift

Hamstew said:

Lukerz said:

I was talking to a mate about the portrayal of the game & also how Palace fans reacted to the loss with a kind of ‘we slaughtered them’ mentality & I asked the question ‘if West Ham had lost 3-2 at home to Palace, where Palace had 3 shots & scored all of them, we had loads of possession & chances & got a couple of late goals back, would I feel gutted & that we were unlucky?’

We both agreed ‘no’. The focus would be on the poor goals we let in at home & I would probably say fair play to Palace for being clinical. I also don’t think the media portrayal would be ‘unlucky Hammers’, more ‘slump continues, wasteful & sloppy at the back’.

I didn’t sit there when we lost to Brentford & felt we were hard done by & they were lucky. I felt we were wasteful & they defended well & took their chances & we should have started the game better & defended the last minute better.

Palace fans almost feel it was a crime they lost. I feel like they should focus on why they lost, wasteful with their chances & they let in 3 goals. Not sure I’d be overly happy with a performance & result like that at home.

Completely agree. They almost celebrated it as a win at full time just because they got back into it. Maybe it's because we are massive and they are miniscule.

One for the Partridge fans.