VAR

alderz

I don't think we have a specific thread for VAR, but it feels like the sort of thing we'll keep coming back to, so here it is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57435400

Premier League to use "thicker lines" for offside calls. I'm really interested to know whether they tested all of the contentious incidents with the new #ThiccLines system, and how much difference it made.

epsom_bubbles

I said this when VAR first came out. Measuring to a millimetre makes a mockery of the linesman. It should have been the same ratio as the touch and goal lines. That would give a slight advantage to the atrack minded teams

MrsGrey

Which lines are going to be thicker?

buffybegood

I'm obviously missing something here. If a player is offside by an inch, even if you draw a line 6 inches wide. an inch of it will still be beyond the 6 inch wide line of the defender, so he'll still be offside.

alderz

Apparently this is the way they do it in Netherlands. But I don’t watch Dutch football so idk how that works. Any Haller fans online today?

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I don't quite get how the thickness of the lines changes anything, but I must be missing something.

IronHerb

A potential fix for the system could already be in use, over in the Eredivisie. The Dutch league gives a margin of error on the assistant referee's call, to avoid those instances when someone's armpit causes them to be offside.

Using the same technology, the league simply has 5cm wide lines on screen, rather than the razor thin one-pixel ones of the Premier League. If the lines are touching, then VAR won't intervene - meaning there is effectively a 10cm margin of error for the assistant's decision.

MrsGrey

Ok, that makes it clearer.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

How does the thickness of the lines change that, though? Can’t they just implement the same rule with lines of whatever thickness i.e if the lines touch, VAR doesn’t intervene.

I’m probably being a bit dim…

MrsGrey

I think it's that if the lines are thicker, it gives a bigger margin of .. a tiny bit of the person could be offside but if there's overlap in the two sets of lines, they are judged 'on'.

Or maybe I'm being dim.

IronHerb

I think it means you can be up to 10cm offside and get away with it. That is giving the linesman some 'error tolerance', which was previously ok, but preventing the West Ham v Liverpool howler.

Ace of Clubs

I don't know about thicker lines but it would help if the people operating it were not so thick.

Kuchinghammer

Follow the Dutch example. Any overlap is onside. The idea of a dedicated 'offside VAR official' - preferably a line judge, not a referee - might work well. We'll see....

alderz

Ace of Clubs said:

I don't know about thicker lines but it would help if the people operating it were not so thick.

Maybe they meant thicker linos…

MrsGrey

I as reading about some of the changes .... thought I'd post this here. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/02/var-set-to-end-premier-league-players-buying-a-penalty-next-season

Things I noticed

re. the offside: 'New rules will apply a different approach, with a final decision made not using the one-pixel-wide lines of the VAR, but the fatter “broadcast lines” used by TV. If the line marking the attacker’s position blurs into the line marking the defender’s position, the attacker will be deemed onside.'

re. penalties: guidance will require it to be a 'proper foul' - it won't be enough any more to establish 'there was contact'.


Of course, there also is (not included in this article) the revised handball rule ... a handball in the lead up to a goal will have to be adjudged 'deliberate' before the goal is ruled out. (But if the goal scorer uses a hand it will be ruled out, deliberate or accidental makes no difference.)

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

The news that they'll be tougher with 'soft' decisions is positive but still don't trust the competency/bravery of the refs to follow through

Still expect to see Salah etc. And other top 6 players goings down and getting decisions whereas the other 14 will be the only ones who have to follow the new rules

IronHerb

Good news is Lee Mason won't be reffing anymore. Bad news is he will be a permanent VAR ref. 😫

Whitehorsehammer

I suppose we are now "top 6"

MrsGrey

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

The news that they'll be tougher with 'soft' decisions is positive but still don't trust the competency/bravery of the refs to follow through

I might see if I can find the full text (rather than newspaper versions of it) to see if it says anything about when the 'turned down by VAR' penalty should get a yellow card for diving.

IronHerb

If there's contact then it's not necessarily diving if you go down is it?

MrsGrey

No, not at all. But it seems like the ref will look at whether the contact was forceful enough to cause the fall in term of how fast and what direction the player goes to ground.

So by almost logical processes, if the player falls too dramatically orseemd to throw themselves down to ' win' a pen isn't is perhaps implied that the player is faking it? Or is it only a dive if there's no contact at all.

Just wonder if there has been any concomitant amendment to the diving guidelines.

claretandbluesky

It's being reported that City have reduced their bid for Harry Kane by 50m on account of these rules, they have stated it reduces his value considerably if he can no longer win a penalty for a brush of his sock.

So does the new VAR rule mean that they are saying its now ok to be just a little bit offside?

IronHerb

claretandbluesky said:

So does the new VAR rule mean that they are saying its now ok to be just a little bit offside?

That's my understanding.

buffybegood

claretandbluesky said:

So does the new VAR rule mean that they are saying its now ok to be just a little bit offside?

Obviously depends who you play for.

claretandbluesky

I can understand a rule that says if it's too close to call ( like a dead heat in horse racing) we favour the attacker but introducing technology designed to eliminate wrong decisions and then setting it up to allow wrong decisions is just ludicrous.

off side is off side, if it's discernible it's offside

Penalty decisions checked and decided by VAR regardless of Ref seeing or not, no more obvious error.

A foul is measured by the same standards regardless of the area of the pitch it takes place, penalty area or half way line.

Oh and while I am at it. A take one for the team foul produces a yellow card and ten minutes on the bench to properly stamp out that aspect of the game which will continue until properly penalised.

OutcastLondoner

claretandbluesky said:

off side is off side, if it's discernible it's offside

I think the rule change is to make it more easily discernible though.

VAR still relies on an individual's eyes and it is still time-sensitive in a weird way. Even though there's no limit on how long they can take, it must feel like time is ticking down and you have to get the right decision in that time. I think this just recognises there has to be a reasonable margin for error and it's not much different to the idea of giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt.

There's absolutely nothing definitive about VAR rulings, it is not goal line tech, and they have to recognise that.

BubblesNeverDies

But it will still allow "the Vardy" penalty decision won't it, when the attacker deliberately changes direction into the path of the defender when slightly ahead and himself causes the collision/contact?

buffybegood

BubblesNeverDies said:

But it will still allow "the Vardy" penalty decision won't it, when the attacker deliberately changes direction into the path of the defender when slightly ahead and himself causes the collision/contact?

Imo this sort of decision will still be subject to big team/blue-eyed boy bias; certain clubs and players will still get these decisions on a regular basis, whereas others won't. It will still boil down to "there's contact, he's entitled to go down" v "there's not enough in it for me".

I'd love a video editor or someone similar to recreate decisions from the past 5 years or so, effectively blanking out both the attacker and defender (so there's silhouettes rather than club strips and faces/bodies) and let both referees and pundits give their opinions on what they "see"; I'm convinced the results would be very different to what they gave or said when they could identify the players involved.

claretandbluesky

I thought the standard of refereeing at the Euros was better than the Premiership, I think our referees have got poorer over the last few seasons.

alderz

It makes sense that it’s better at the Euros, as only the best refs from each league get to participate

IronHerb

I think the refs as a team are briefed as to what is and what isn't acceptable. There was more contact allowed in the Euros than in the Prem and I think that was because they were briefed to do so.