All about rules ... changes, enforcement, VAR etc

baracks_a_hammer

It’s not the same as umpires call in cricket though. Because in cricket and lbw decisions, you have to effectively guess/predict what the ball is going to do after it has hit the pad.

Whereas in football it is a snapshot of actuality with no predictions. Same as for the tennis and indeed existing goal line decisions in football

Lukerz

But it is a judgement. The umpire is judging whether he thinks the ball is hitting the stumps. The assistant is judging if the attacking player is beyond the last defender. Both cases see a judgement; cricket has dealt with it in a way that leaves the onus with the umpire. In football it is going to be ‘well there is no way the assistant would ever see that, but it is technically offside’. So we rule the goal out. Surely it makes sense to be ‘well that is a clear offside, not a 50/50 one, so we will rule that out’, whereas with a 50/50 call where he may be offside after several different methods of analysis, that stays with the original decision. Otherwise we may as well get rid of assistants. They don’t check corners & throws? They are also black & white; a corner to one team or a goal kick to the other.

There must be some wriggle room.

baracks_a_hammer

By the argument remains in a high stakes environment that you actually want the correct decision to prevail.

If you are offside by just part of your foot, you are still offside, that’s what the rules say. When the camera snaps it there is no judgement at all, surely?

Judgment will only come into play when considering interfering with play etc

IronHerb

The cricket case doesn't hold up. From pad to stump is technology driven and hence the umpires call allows for any error in the technology. VAR is physically correct so no room for technological error.

If 'well there is no way the assistant would ever see that, but it is technically offside' isn't to be allowed then, still using the cricket comparison, batsmen should not be given out caught using Ultra Edge.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

It’s not a judgment call, it’s onside or offside. Sometimes it’s impossible for a human to see it, but the technology sees it absolutely.

I just can’t understand how we could have the technology to measure onside or offside but ignore it in the spirit of the game. How is that the spirit of the game? There’s a rule and the technology exists for that rule to be enforced precisely.

It’s the same with the goal-line technology. The ball either crosses the line or doesn’t. Should that go back to be a judgment call as well, because it was more exciting?

Expat_Hammer

Plus the umpire is in a static position, the lino may be behind the line of play and not have a correct view and uses what he thinks rather than fact.

SuzanneClaret

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes said:

If it’s offside then VAR needs to give it as offside, whether it’s by an eyelash or not.

Offside is not a judgement call, it’s something that’s absolute.

The issues for me are with the rule itself, not the fact that VAR is being used to follow that rule to the letter.

This, absolutely this.

alderz

Lukerz said:

Just not keen on it. Mistaken identity, infringements that allow a goal to be scored, penalty checks...fine.

But “infringements that allow a goal to be scored” includes close offside decisions

grey_til_I_dye

Jorderz

Totally agree.

Now what we need is an improvement in the method the VAR team use to determine it. It is way too slow, atm.

Giant_Hammer

I remember moaning ad-nauseum about how many off-side goals Liverpool got away with last season. If VAR helps relegate them I'd be one happy bunny. :biggrin:

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Grey :ok:

I hope that what we’re aiming for, rather than reigning in perfectly-good technology, is for offside to be measured almost as quickly as the goal-line technology is looked at.

It might never be THAT instantaneous, but hopefully over the years to come it can happen within seconds.

IronHerb

I love it when managers go on about the spirit of the game and then watch their centre back hoof it into Row Z and immediately raise the arm to claim the throw in.

Lukerz

It’s not about excitement. It’s about the referee retaining as much authority as he can, & the game flow not being interrupted.

Personally I thought that the game was fine. Referees did a fantastic job in the premier league in the main but we wanted to get technology in to take it from 90% to 95% plus.

But I am all for technology in general, so I accept it makes it better because it is a fantastic thing. If it helps keep a side up through a clear foul in the box during the build up to a goal, brilliant.

That Jesus goal for me is too far. I get the argument it’s either offside or not, but I don’t like that part of it. For me it needs to be revised in those situations. I didn’t even trust the red line drawn on. It looked like someone was trying to do it on paint & draw a line down the side of Sterling’s shoulder. If the technology was similar to goal line, then fine. You put a line across the last defender, shade out the grass they are running into & some hyper sensitive system flags up the body % which is offside, giving you a 360/Birdseye view. But not as it currently is for hairline offside calls.

Lukerz

baracks_a_hammer said:

By the argument remains in a high stakes environment that you actually want the correct decision to prevail.

If you are offside by just part of your foot, you are still offside, that’s what the rules say. When the camera snaps it there is no judgement at all, surely?

Judgment will only come into play when considering interfering with play etc

So a guy who has bigger feet that his defender is technically in line because both of their heels are level, but his toe is offside as he is a size 8 compared to a 7. It just gets silly for me.

imagelost

Cuz1 said:

MrsGrey said:

They are still allowed to jump though.

What with 50,000 vaults in them

Like see them not jump lol

alderz

Lukerz

All last season there was a common consensus that refereeing had gotten worse and worse, so II’m surprised you think they were fantastic

Lukerz

For me that technology they have for offside is not good enough currently. I can guarantee that there will be a goal ruled out for offside this season that with different technology will be deemed legit. That system with drawing the blue & red lines on & then deciding when to pause the club & then drawing the lines down from the players to the pitch, all done by humans on computers, allows for too much of an element of doubt.

alderz

I would imagine that the lines are drawn by a machine learning algorithm that will naturally improve over time. My guess is the only human element will be determining when the ball left a players foot.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I do agree the technology isn't perfect at this point. But I think the way to address that is to improve it and improve how efficiently it's used, not accept that it isn't immediately perfect and therefore go backwards.

Lukerz

I don’t mean to get rid of it. I think it should be altered until they have a proper efficient & reliable system in place. Eventually they should be able to say what % of the attackers body is ahead of the last defender. For now I think VAR should be ruling out clear & obvious offsides. Perhaps this could be done by determining a minimum gap between the two players & measuring that, or the daylight idea (pitch must be visible between the two players).

baracks_a_hammer

You will instantly get different decisions according to who the var ref is at the time because you are introducing judgment into an area which can be determined by fact.

In which case may as well not have var

Lukerz

No you say that there needs to be 5 yards (just an example) between the blue and red line. You put the lines up and measure the gap with the technology. Any more & it is ruled offside. Less than 5 & it is onside. All the VAR officials are consistent with that.

I just don’t like how VAR is used to decide a borderline offside. It looks two Bob when the replay comes up with all those squiggles on it judging that a nose hair is ahead of the defender.

alderz

They’ve already done that though. The rule is anything more than 0mm and you’re offside.

Lukerz

Yeah I just don’t like it. I can see why people are defending it & looking at it through the law of it being either offside or not. From a football fan perspective, I just don’t like the thought that we score a really good team goal later in the season, but it is ruled out cos Anderson’s Afro is ahead of Zouma by 0.1mm. In fact, if Zouma had an Afro, they would be level. I just don’t like it.

I think as the season goes on people will also start getting more & more impatient. I know it is more an issue with the law, but I find it is amplified by the introduction of VAR & how it is being implemented. I would be surprised if it wasn’t tweaked by Xmas.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

But what you’re basically saying is that the rules shouldn’t get in the way of entertainment.

Do you think the same about goal-line technology? It’s either over the line or not unless it’s a really, really good goal?

baracks_a_hammer

Then Anderson needs to visit Tricky Trev’s barber

chicagohammer

Just think how many players Fellaini has been keeping onside over the years, who knew

Lukerz

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes said:

But what you’re basically saying is that the rules shouldn’t get in the way of entertainment.

Do you think the same about goal-line technology? It’s either over the line or not unless it’s a really, really good goal?

Not really.

You are making it a comparison when my argument is not the same. I haven't even mentioned entertainment. It's more entertaining we have these situations regularly & it becomes some sort of reality TV show where we wait for 'goal' or 'no goal'.

Goal-line technology is the complete package. The referee's buzzer goes off to inform him it is over the line, 100% categorically. We then get a replay as proof, where the incident is shown in slow motion, changed to a 3D animation & it shows you, from 360 degrees, a close up of the ball crossing the line.

The comparison to the offside situation, is it appears a guy at VAR HQ pauses the game when he feels the contact is made of the ball, two lines go up on the screen to indicate both defensive & attacking, these lines are put on from roughly both players furthest legal point forward to indicate if they are level or one is ahead & the camera is zoomed in slightly. It's two-bob. Do we know with 100% accuracy that the same point of the shoulder is selected for every player who is offside by his shoulder?

That is not the same level of technology as goal-line. There is still subjective human interference. I imagine what they are doing is similar to what GNev & Carra do on MNF with their touchscreen punditry.

It's not the same.

So I am saying until we get that level of quality, like goal-line, the margin should be extended from 0mm to slightly more. It allows for an element of error from the VAR HQ & doesn't mean we have ages to wait whilst every goal is dissected for the sake of spotting an offside by hair strand.

IronHerb

So we make it 5 or 10mm gap, or whatever, and then find a player is 1or 2mm in front and on it goes.

thornburyiron

You can’t change the law to suit VAR. VAR is there to show that the law is correctly applied