Swansea (Home) - 30th September 3pm (match thread)

Huttonhammer

That was one of the worst games of football I have ever seen. Ayew was a disgrace and looks totally unfit . He cannot run , can't control the ball a total horror show today. Antonio shouldn't have been playing he was nowhere near fit he had no pace and looked completely awful.
Our midfield had no invention at all until Lanzini came on and we created so very little Chicarito will get fed up playing in such a poor side.
If Swansea had shown a bit of spark going forwards they would have got something from the game .
If Bilic really wants to stay in the job he must get the team playing a lot lot better than that shambles.
3 points is always great but it hides a dreadful performance from a team that does not know how it wants to play!!

Lukerz

We lack an identity.

Playing 4-4-2 with Ayew as a winger just looked completely wrong. The balance of the side was off from the start.

Going forwards, if we want 4 at the back, we should look at:

Hart
Zabaleta - Fonte - Reid - Cresswell
Noble/Obiang - Kouyate
Antonio - Lanzini - Arnautovic/Masuaku
Chicharito/Sakho

Ayew and Carroll need to become impact players, for the good of the club going forwards.

I think we can convert Masuaku into a winger too. He has pace, good delivery and a bit of trickery. We need some genuine width when playing at home, especially when Andy is on.

You have to feel for Bilic. He is a nice guy, loves the club and loves football.

I just don't think he has much tactical nous about him. Most of our winning performances since the first season have been worse than anything Sam dished up.

Huttonhammer

Masuaku was everything in the few minutes he was on that Ayew wasn't .
The run for the goal and cross was very good and Ayew never does that.
I was actually getting angry watching Ayew play he was terrible . One time he tried to run down the wing and just kicked the ball off.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Ayew was awful, the quality wasn't there but the effort from all was

We got a win and a cleansheet with a back four and no injuries against a side who hadn't conceded away

What's not to love ;run

NEoldiron

We need another Scott Parker type player who's going cheap (cue the chicken jokes).
Lanzini is the only player we have with the ability/confidence to run the ball out from defence in the middle of the field. The problem is getting runners to anticipate it and support him and that is down to what they do in training.

NEoldiron

Following on from that, Kouyate does his best but his final pass is too often poor.

tomkinsworldclass

Bad game and poor performance but with all things considered it will go down as an important win, scoring a nice goal and another clean sheet. Swansea played some nice stuff at times but barely created anything over the 90 mins- one 30 yard shot in the first half and olsson had a chance in the 2nd but Hart had very very little do; whilst even though WHU played poorly we still had much more opportunities and were able to keep on going to get the win.

Not too many individual positives to go on about but I thought Fonte and Reid did well at the back and as pair in a normally vulnerable back 4; very good to see Fonte put in a series of strong displays at the back as he has had his critics. Carroll keeps going and completed a full 90, looking strong and hopefully with some important work on the training pitch to make him more effective he can be an important figure for us. Sakho and Masuaku made a big difference off the bench and will certainly be in contention for the next match. Antonio and Hernandez were well off pace and IMO were clearly not PL fit- perhaps fit enough to pass a fitness test and contribute something but not enough to play to their strengths or their usual level.

We can certainly improve on a lot of things but foundations are there to now kick off from, and with the return of important players to the the first team and those that are back hopefully working themselves into better condition, things will undoubtedly improve alot IMO. Bilic does deserve credit as he consistently gets important results when needed, deals constantly with completely unnecessary pressure with class+composure and for all those slagging him off about the defence, he has been able to guide us to 4 clean sheets in 5 games. October has some nice fixtures and Im confident we can have another good month- Burnley, Brighton Palace in the PL and Spurs in the Cup are a nice set of fixtures for us.

I cant help but admit my displeasure at the behaviour and attitude of the fans. Moaning and booing throughout the entire game, jeering players as they went off. Singling out individuals. I was watching it just like everyone else so I will openly admit the game was poor and our performance was bad......but thats when the players need our support and our patience isnt it? not aggravating things by latching onto every mistake, Targeting individuals and jeering- especially people like Noble, Ayew and Bilic. People pay and will always have the right to act however they so wish to, but is it helping or hurting the team??? I would always argue the later and for me it clearly had an knock-on effect especially with Cresswell, Noble and Ayew. It was vitriolic, counter productive and only plays into the hands of future opponents.

Bazshuayi

Whatever my feelings re Bilic are, I hope that the international break sees Antonio get the rest and recovery he needs as he's a big player for us.

Also, whether we play a back 3 or 4, its obvious what Arthurs qualities are. We need someone who's pacey, tricky ( and appears confident too! ) and can put in a cross for the strikers. If he doesnt take Cresswells place, I think he should play in front of him. Arnie hasnt proved it yet but I think him and Arthur would be a big threat down the left hopefully in tandem with Antonio down the right.

I was hoping a while ago that Sakho would get more game time purely because he has the ability to hold up the play, run the channels plus be in the right place to put the ball in the net. We know what Carroll's strengths are and Chicharito's.

I am not suggesting that managing is an easy thing. However, now we actually have three strikers fit, Arthur pressing and Lanzini (and Antonio AND I assume Arnie) being fit by our next game at Burnley, we need to find a pattern of play, system allied to appropriate use of subs bench.

A lot of us are complaining about the way the team plays, or its inability to play considering our standard of individuals. I realize the international break is hardly the best time to be working on things but I still think we should've already worked out plan A, B etc plus permutations in terms of players/systems.

Is it not right that most other teams seem to be more advanced than us? Yes, even the teams who are considered, player wise, less talented than ours?

West Ham fans traditionally want to see attractive football (even over actual results). But I think its not too much to ask for a bit of both with the players we have.

Totally agree with the comments regarding booing not helping at all. I've never booed my team however exasperated and frustrated they've made me. Its obvious it doesnt help morale/confidence

Lukerz

Masuaku reminded me very much of Bale during the build up to the goal yesterday. I was very ;hmm about him but there is no doubt he has offered a lot whenever he's come onto the pitch this season.

Get him at LW if we don't want to risk him at LB.

OutcastLondoner

Masuaku is the most suited to playing LW for us, if we want to feed the strikers. Arnie will cut in. Ayew is playing badly. Lanzini is better centrally. It's an easy decision.

SuzanneClaret

Whilst I very much understand the 'well we did get three points and isn't that the point' point of view as it's one I've held, I think we have gone past that. How we have played, the inability to pass a ball to a team mate or 5 feet in front of him so he can run onto the ball, the very poor skill set of players we know can and have played better. The incredibly poor decision making during a game all leads me to think that the signs of continued backward steps as a club are very evident.

I feel like I did when Grant was in charge.... the writing is on the wall and no one is reading it.


As for the booing and the general air of disgruntlement, how are fans supposed to show their displeasure? We are supposed to turn up, raise the roof and cheer the team on and for the most part that is what we do, time and time again, even when the football is really really poor. Now I don't go in for booing myself as it doesn't help but what else are fans to do, just sit there and tut a bit...

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Feel nothing like when Avram Grant was in charge ...........

first off, when needed we can defend and we have the Manager sorting the players out, not Scott Parker.

Some have forgotten how to enjoy a win, in a poor start to the season and injuries and still adapting to the ground, only spending 14m net for some reason.

Why not channel the BOO's into something with some humour, or singing, cheering, let the boys know you're still behind them and believe. Rather than removing another 10% of their confidence.

They're not thick, the players and Manager know what's good/bad performance wise.

;ok

SuzanneClaret

Oh I enjoyed the win. Well I enjoyed the fact we got a win. But for the first time I'm not letting it overshadow what I'm seeing.

The 'well we were poor today' and 'we know where we went wrong and will work to change it' comments mean absolutely nothing with out visible evidence that they really are.



P.S. I do hope very much that I am so very wrong.

thornburyiron

If they're not thick why can't they ever learn from their mistakes and do things differently and sometimes better. Why continue to pass sideways or backwards. Crosses and set pieces rarely beat the first man or we cross high for a dwarf and low for a giant.
Or are they just following instructions from our management team who seem to just be hoping that somehow they'll hit upon something that works.

Lukerz

But they aren't consciously choosing to do those things.

They are the result of in game actions. The pass sideways is due to no movement or no confidence in making the pass or opposition pressure or the shape of the other side, not because we want to or are under instruction to do so. It's not as easy as 'pass forwards, create chance, score goal'. Otherwise sides like Palace would not have 0 goals from 7 games.

Poor delivery is not intentional. It is poor quality by a player. Whether that is lack of practise, poor quality, lack of confidence, player movement in the box (maybe it was a near post routine and the runner in the box didn't make the right run).

It's frustrating, but not intentional.

SuzanneClaret

Why then does the same player perform differently under different managers?

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

thornburyiron said:

If they're not thick why can't they ever learn from their mistakes and do things differently and sometimes better. Why continue to pass sideways or backwards. Crosses and set pieces rarely beat the first man or we cross high for a dwarf and low for a giant.
Or are they just following instructions from our management team who seem to just be hoping that somehow they'll hit upon something that works.

You really think it's that easy Thorn?

You really think that putting whip, pace and almost pin point accuracy on a ball is that easy? You know to get it right 9 times out of 10?

You think that not being able to do that is through being "thick"

Honestly I (almost) give up

MIAHammer

NEoldiron said:

Following on from that, Kouyate does his best but his final pass is too often poor.

And he does seem to give away a lot of free kicks recently.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Adam said:

I actually thought Hernandez played well without the ball. He was the only one trying to press their defence. The problem arises when no-one else does because it's easy for the opposition then.

There is some merit in that comment, on the stream I was watching Carrol and Ayew were often criticised for standing, waiting with their backs to the goal instead of moving around to create targets and openings for attack - hence the sideways and backwards play. If two of the strikers are standing doing nothing it make it very easy to mark them out of the game and defend, also allows the opposition DFM and Midfield to press forward to ours, stifling our play.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

SuzanneClaret said:

Why then does the same player perform differently under different managers?

That is due to many factors, motivation, respect are some, but most of the main ones are that no two players are the same and neither are two games the same.

Sometimes it all comes off for a player under a certain manager, they have a belief and will to try different things and Bingo it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

Half of our team have shown the same traits under SA and SB, there isn't really much difference except that SB went a whole season of entertainment, SA went half a season.

Lukerz

Hernandez and Carroll too often drifted into unthreatening positions. We don't need big Andy down by the corner flag. Need to find a way of getting them closer together and in the box. The right wing should be, generally, for Antonio and Zabaleta, not Andy.

Lukerz

Suze - look at Downing.

England quality for Sam in the CAM position.

Now can't get a game for Boro.

MIAHammer

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard said:

Some have forgotten how to enjoy a win, in a poor start to the season and injuries and still adapting to the ground, only spending 14m net for some reason.

How much longer can we use the "still adapting to the ground" excuse? It's starting to get old.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Lukerz said:

Hernandez and Carroll too often drifted into unthreatening positions. We don't need big Andy down by the corner flag. Need to find a way of getting them closer together and in the box. The right wing should be, generally, for Antonio and Zabaleta, not Andy.

That is as much others not doing their jobs or the formation we have, if 3 at the back then wing backs may do some of that work

alderz

I think Arthur and Arnie would be a good combo too, whoever said it earlier. I think Armie's tendency to drift inside limits him when Cresswell doesn't seem willing to get forward. The full back has a decision to make when Arthur is overlapping.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Everton looking like us at the start of the season, low on confidence at times and getting picked off

baracks_a_hammer

I wouldn't say we looked particularly high on confidence yesterday. Seems like everyone was terrified to do anything other than pass sideways or back to the keeper!! Up until Arthur came on in the last few minutes and decided to give it a go

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Lack of movement in front of the player with the ball doesn't help and we don't always do that well

MarkNobleLocalHero

To be fair Baracks, Lanzini also took the ball to them and made a big difference getting us up the field.

baracks_a_hammer

Agreed NWC. I was just making the point in general. The movement and awareness of lanzini, Arthur and Sakho in the dying minutes of the game got us over the line