New Broom or New Broomsweeper

I’ve been mulling over a few things while reading the discussions -especially the one on Lopetegui’s appointment, and the one on the Wolves game. People seem to be arguing about what is missing from the team, while also arguing about whether the manager is right for the team, and it led me to this thought.
The managerial choice seems to be between the two following versions. Version 1 is someone who has a style of play which resonates with the club, who then imposes their style on the team, regardless of whether the current players are suited to the style. Once the style of play has been integrated into the team and the team implicitly know how to play, the manager then replaces less competent players with those more suited to the style.
Next step, success.
Version 2 is a manager who looks at the players available to them, and develops a style suited to the squad they have in front of them. Then, over subsequent transfer windows, more talented players are brought in, each time requiring a slight -or at times, drastic- change in the style of play, which at best can be confusing for players at times.
In my opinion, I would like to see version 1, but I understand that may mean putting a style in place where you need to change most of the squad. It’s a project of a number of years, with a dip in form to be expected in the first year.
I think (or blindly hope) that this was the plan with Lopetegui’s appointment, but it seems the board -and fans- of football clubs rarely have such patience these days.
Thoughts?

Comments

  • I think they're trying to do V1. The issue with that, though, is that it can take time, and its possible that you appoint a manager that isn't the 'right' guy in the end. At the moment, we're in a spot where it's hard to say whether he's right and will get there in the end, or not.

    For me, I want them to do V1, but there has to be a balance. If the players can't effectively do the style of play that the manager wants (or if the manager is unable to communicate what he wants in a way that the players can execute), then something needs to change. Because you can't just go on and on playing the same style and looking flimsy.

    In the case of West Ham and Lopetegui, I think that means adapting his gameplan slightly. He's changed a lot about the way we build up, transition, attack, press, defend and our shape. It's conceivable that the team struggle to deliver all of that at once. Maybe you keep some elements of that, but do a couple of things in a more familiar way, and make the change of football a little bit of a slow burn.
  • edited December 2024
    I’ve found it interesting a lot of fans on social media think there is no real change. I think the changes are obvious.

    Higher defensive line
    Higher, attacking full-backs
    A slower build up
    No longer reliant on set-plays (in fact they are now one of our weakest areas)
    A more narrow attacking process (hence why the full-backs are so high)
    Wider use of the squad - including in game substitutions
    More possession on average in our games
    More shots (more regularly having 15 plus shots a game)

    The issue is that these tweaks leave us exposed to counter-attacks. Nearly every time a side attacks, they create a meaningful opportunity. We don’t really ever have a period where we have a 10 minute spell of absorbing pressure & being solid. It’s either 1) us on the ball 2) us attacking 3) us trying to defend in a last-ditch manner.

    I was never vocal on Moyes not staying & I’m not vocal about Lop going. I think there is a case that he needs a season to sort this all out & get all the parts into place. It doesn’t help we’ve had injuries, suspensions & factors outside of our control impacting players (Paqueta,
    Antonio etc).
  • The Premier League is pretty crazy compared to most European ones and some of our players may just be getting used to it, Soler for one. Our league is so physical as out of possession you press fast and in possession you break at speed. If you compare this to a more chess like Euro league in which they almost say ok you have possession , we are set, your move. I think you could see in early games Soler and Rodriguez being rushed off their feet at times when in possession, look at Soler now however and he is moving it faster.
  • I think it's half rice half chips.

    We're definitely aiming for v1, but J-Lo has shown that he can be pragmatic as well (eg at Newcastle it felt as though AWB was less advanced than in previous games), and this is how it should be. You can't expect to have the same amount of possession against Arsenal or Man City as you would against say Leicester, so there has to be an element of pragmatism in the team you select and how you ask them to play ie using the tools you currently have available in the most appropriate way.

    J-Lo hasn't been helped (as no manager is) by the individual errors that seem to have blighted our season so far; it's all well and good setting up the team to play a certain way, and having players that play that way, but if players make basic mistakes it's tough on the manager. Again, I get that you can set a team up to minimise the consequences of such mistakes (eg a lower block means you're less likely to get exposed on the counter, but that can create a whole different set of problems).

    It's kinda like comparing playing Zouma (say, the season before last's version when he could still jump but couldn't really run too well) and Mavropanos. If you're playing Zouma, you 100% have to play low block all of the time, as he had zero recovery pace even 2 years ago. However, if you say Mavropanos has average pace, he could play a higher line OK, but is vulnerable to individual mistakes such as not keeping in line with the other defenders and playing Vardy onside against Leicester. Should the manager have to factor in individual mistakes and change his whole system to try and negate the consequences of them, or should he trust that the player is capable to playing well (as he did against Wolves) and set the team up on the basis of that standard?

    I guess that's why the managers get the big bucks.
  • Interesting thread with some good thoughts -certainly agree re Soler, initially he did not impress me at all yet lately he has come into his own.

    I have seen Soucek get forward a lot more and make a nuisance of himself in the box and pose a threat but I think in general our midfield lacks pace, Soler possibly the exception.

    AWB get forward quickly and has a good engine but leaves gaps that our central defenders seem slow to fill, sometimes their wingers are in acres of space, I would certainly be looking to exploit that if I were the opposition.

    Alverez has let us down just a little bit to often for my liking, and Paq gives the ball away to cheaply which must be very frustrating for the manager, comes under the too many individual errors column
  • I can imagine having to remember to play a new way from how you've played for the past few years can contribute to making mistakes on the pitch.
    I can also imagine the pressure the players feel under from knowing that they're underperforming contributing to making mistakes on the pitch.
    The pressure from the fans (pick your favourite West Ham player, and somewhere you'll find West Ham fans going on about how terrible they are, and that they should be sold at a loss) must also be a factor.
    I guess part of Lopetegui's job is to help the individual players stop making mistakes, and to recognise when he has a good player who's just making too many mistakes, and when the player has reached potential, and will never be better.
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