Grammer - puncturation - riting. Disgusting...
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Comments
Before him, anything went. ;biggrin
I am sorry to read that Grey didnt understand my point. It was largely about people suggesting there are hard and fast rules about commas. I understand that teachers have to pretend that there are; I've done it myself as a teacher. But I do believe that, on this occasion, I was unusually clear about what I was saying.
Is there any style guide you are aware of that says that joining two main clauses with a comma is acceptable?
Who is pretending that is the case?
Any UK examiner where punctuation is part of the assessment?
Any EFL examination board whose qualifications are accepted in the UK?
UK editors?
Professional writers?
It seems to me you have erroneously argued from the general:
there are some disagreements about acceptable comma use in some situations in standard written English:
to deny the specific:
comma splicing is a punctuation error in standard written English
If your point then I can't think why you referenced me since I made no such general claim.
I made a specific statement which I am confident would be assented to by pretty much anyone with a professional interest in standard written English punctuation.
You can deny the moon-landings, but it doesn't make you right.
On what basis are you denying it?
The fact of it, or the expression of it?
Comma splicing is an error in standard written English writing.
It's treated as such in public UK exams where punctuation is considered as part of the marks, right through from KS2 to university level.
It is considered as such in books on grammar that I've got, and widely on the Interwebby.
Oxford Dictionary, for example: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/the-comma-splice
I would be prepared to bet that it is considered a mistake by any national newspaper editor.
You may be able to find a quote from someone saying they don't think it matters, but I really don't think that alters the fact. You can point to famous examples, but it still doesn't alter the fact.
As Lynn Truss has it (rather snobbishly, imo): Given the choice between teaching or advising that it is an error of punctuation on the basis of the wide ranging consensus, or allowing it on the grounds that Swiss reckons it's OK, I'm going to stick with it being a no-no.
Just to clarify:
I have no general interest in telling people how to punctuate their writing in private, on Internet forums, in academic situations or, in fact, at all.
People are free to do what they like.
Where I am being employed as a teacher, I will pass on the current rules of English punctuation, and if people want to discuss the issue, I will give my opinion.
Other than that, I really don't mind.
Poetry has its own rules. Which are that there are no rules. ;nolan ;wahoo
As you say, prose writers, too, often break with convention, for effect. I think that in the text printed on the poster they are trying to give it the sense of how someone would say it if they were giving a speech.
(Where the punctuation of a written-down speech is often non-standard because it is there to aid the speaker in the delivery, rather than being written for 'the public' to read.)
Perhaps they were.
I'd suggest that by definition poetic usage is outside the normal bounds of standard written English, and that for all normal purposes comma splicing is considered an error of punctuation, and is thus best avoided.
On a separate note, I remembered one that I have always made: whenever I write with a pen / pencil I unfailingly write both as 'bothe'. I have always done it (as far as I remember) and I have to look really hard to notice it when checking my work as my mind usually glances over and accepts it. I have no idea how it started and I cannot avoid doing it. As far as I can recall it is the only one I do every time without fault. As these days I rarely write freehand I forget about it, as noticeably it is not something I do using a keyboard. The mind is a funny thing.
I have done something similar since time began....its usually when typing but instead of "with the" I end typing "withe" , no idea why...
And when I'm trying on my phone, anything can happen and I rarely check before posting.
(I disagree, though. I think they are subtle and sophisticated. A bit like me ;biggrin )
It depends on who is doing the 'shoulding'!
If the aim is to follow generally accepted standardised punctuation, there are (pace Swiss) rules 'out there'.
Otherwise, ask yourself does using a piece of punctuation make it easier for your readers to understand what you are saying, including removing any potential ambiguity.
(The two things are not necessarily separate, since current standardised punctuation has evolved to try to make writing easier to read.)
Stop reading, now, if you don't care about semi-colons
(The 'generally' is because ; have 3 main uses. And one of them is to replace the 'comma that separates items in list' when the things in your list already have commas in them. So by adding a list-type comma you end up with so many commas that your reader goes ;nonono ;run ;diop
Door please
;yercoat
(Note, that's not a wet, fish-waving mod. ;biggrin )
A law drafted without an Oxford comma means that drivers win their case for getting paid overtime.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/16/oxford-comma-helps-drivers-win-dispute-about-overtime-pay
I stayed in a Travelodge recently and there was a sign in the bathroom:
"Place towels in bath if you want them replacing"
Is "replacing" here correct, and is it a gerund?
Or should the sign be "....if you want them replaced"? Is that also possible?
Or is "....if you want them to be replaced" the only correct form?
I know we use all three forms in spoken English but which are grammatically correct?