The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

MrsGrey said:

Yeah, but that's not all I'm going to base it on, though. Especially as what the 'out future' would look like on a personal level is difficult to know. (Although Brits who were here pre-EU can offer a fairly good idea.) ;ok

I was clearly fishing for a like or two

What more does man have to do ;lol

AKAHammer63

A key question that surely is the heart of the debate is the freedom of movement across EU and can we absorb anymore economic migration can our infrastructure take anymore pressure hospitals education etc. Will the new living wage add to it in no way do I want to seem insular and blame the ills of our country on migration however it is an issue at the heart of it does this outweigh perhaps the economic negatives of leaving sadly I doubt whether thus question will be rationally qualified both sides will manipulate stats to suit there arguments and migrants will feel more villified and blamed
TBH I do think there is a problem
With free movement only because EU is a 3 tier system wealth and economic wise and this does put a strain on the richer economies and because some countries have free healthcare more generous benifits higher standard of living it attracts mainly unskilled workers but I do not pretend I have the answer call me Dave certainily hasnt negotiated anything better but it is a fact that it is a problem ;ok

AKAHammer63

However as I stated earlier in 75 I was 3 months to young to vote but would have voted out but my gut feeling is 40 years later we are too integrated now and OUT is no longer possible or realistic ;ok

baracks_a_hammer

Aka

The way George Osborne deals with the creaking NHS and education systems is to continually rip the heart out of "middle England" - they are the ones expected to pay for it.

AKAHammer63

Agree Baraks but do low paid migrants contribute enough through taxes and with tax credits etc is it too much a strain ;ok

Dodger58

I notice the BBC news making a big thing about the 36 Footsie 100 members decided to focus on O2. A bit ironic as O2 is owned by Telefonica a German company. Is it a surprise that they would urge people to vote to stay in?

Tomw85

It is interesting reading everyone's thoughts and views and also heartening to know that the majority on here are giving it proper consideration and not just making knee jerk reactions which I was worried too many people would do.

At the moment I am still on the fence. Part of me thinks that we are better to stay in and try to help reform the EU from within. Although the cynic in me thinks that we will never get anywhere and that too often it seems that Germany or France block what may be best for us.

It is that which then makes me think we would be better off on our own as we can then regain some of the powers that we seem to have lost. But at the same time I don't want us to become a small minded nation closed off to the rest of the world. I also don't want the average person on the street to be left worse off if the EU makes our exit difficult for us.

It is very important for us to find the right balance in retaining our culture and heritage but also contributing, adapting and helping lead the world forward to be a better place for all. I think that London will always be a multicultural city that will draw people in from all over the world. I also think that with new technology and advances coming in if we were to exit it would be easier to remain connected still. Things like visa's and banking are already online and I can only see that becoming more so in the future. If we do leave we will still be a world player but would we be more so if we stayed in?

I was hoping that by writing this down it might help me swing one way more than the other, however for each argument/point I make I can find a counter argument. I think my biggest fear is that each politician or member state of the EU is out to do what is best for them or gives them the most power and not what is alway best for the most people in the long term.

I hope that one day we reach a point that we as a collective always look to do what is best, however unfortunately I don't think that we will ever be rid of the horrible flaw in human nature that is greed which almost always leads to corruption. Anyway that is heading off topic now so will end my ramblings.

thornburyiron

A point I noticed was the Polish PM stating the Cameron deal was far better for Poland and the U.K and Merkle admitting that she and Europe conceded virtually nothing. That's down to Cameron stating at the outset that he wants to stay in whatever the outcome. The Baldrick method of bartering and negotiation.

baracks_a_hammer

Dear Angela

As you know, I'm more than happy for our nation to continue serving under yours.

However, please can you help me create the impression to my gullible electorate that I have really battled hard and secured some fantastic concessions for the UK - ones which my all time idol Margaret Thatcher would have been proud of. Of course I'm more than happy, as discussed for these then to be rescinded as soon as possible, but I just need to get this annoying June 23rd thing out of the way.

Yours always

(Call me) Dave

secrethammersfan

My tuppence worth is that Britain in the EU, but with special exemptions, and a lot of autonomy, will have the same end-result as Britain outside the EU, but with special partnerships and "favoured nation" status. Whether you get a nametag and a party hat, you're still invited to the street party. Putting it bluntly, if the quality of life goes up or down by a few hundred pounds per year, in all likelihood, it won't be because of any other country's influence. EU membership will not affect intelligence sharing, either, so any argument about national security is a load of gentlemen's reproductive organs. Vote in or out, the UK will always be what it is. A separate part of Europe. That's what makes you special! ;hug

AKAHammer63

Really interesting QT last night good point about this is not a question of economics or immigration but democracy ;bowdown

An observation time and time again Pro mention trading with Europe and it part of Global economy yet my understanding is that global economy is all about world free trade ending tariffs etc which is slowly progressing so ;cake and eat comes to mind

Although my instincts are out I have come to a unique solution I shall ask my Children what they intend to vote for and follow majority decision I feel at 58
The outcome is not going to overly affect me and this is a long term thing so I owe it to them luckily Ive got 3 so it cant be level vote ;ok

OutcastLondoner

Human rights, worker rights etc. are also part of democracy and the EU provides accountability to ensure those standards and values are kept. I don't trust this government to not take us backwards in this regard if we abandon the ECHR.

imagelost

MrsGrey said:

imagelost said:

Stop scare mongring
Give proof are shut up

Is that addressed to people on here, or politicians?



If politicians, is it addressed to both sides or just one?

Mp's

AKAHammer63

Perhaps Outcast but point they are making us that it should be UK decision dont think
Our HR were that bad kept banging on about workers rights have they having a giraffe I just TUPE lost my pension ;angry

grey_til_I_dye

Government's paper on possible models if the UK leaves the EU, including their reasons why they think it would not be a benefit.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf

EXETERHAMMER

Squeeky bum time tomorrow

MrsGrey

Got my proxy vote sorted ;ok

EXETERHAMMER

I'm personally feeling the European love.

Ravel49

#RomaineSaysRemain

SuzanneClaret

In

Stay

Remain

OutcastLondoner

Sorted my proxy vote when I did the mayoral one. Just hope my sister doesn't Jordan Henderson the ticking part.

MrsGrey

;lol


;nonono

;whome

MrsGrey

Worth reading if you are still undecided - the main issues, the arguments for 'leave'. The facts. The arguments for remain.

The questions to ask yourself.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote

thornburyiron

So biased in favour of remain though it won't help anybody.

MrsGrey

It does, however, offer some actual facts pertaining to the various issues.

Which people who are undecided can consider, and ignore if they like.

Or can look up other facts which they can also weigh in the balance.

Personally speaking, I found nothing that the 'leave' campaign presented to persuade me to change the current situation went beyond rhetoric, racism, bigotry, obfuscation, misinformation and insinuation.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Have still to decide - have to admit I have been very disappointed with the remain campaign in my area who seem to have given up from the start and provided nothing.

The Leave have issued a lot of information in leaflets (anything up to 6 page A5 pamphlets) and even did an 8 page metro style news paper, all of which make well thought out and compelling arguments to leave, with lots of comment on the remain sides claims of doom basically pointing out (apart from speculation by all and sundry) they can not provide any factual proof of their claims any more then the Leave side can.

OutcastLondoner

There are plenty of newspapers biased the other way.

The FT has been the most sensible newspaper in its coverage but no-one reads it and those who do have made up their minds.

I feel the same as MrsG. I haven't seen a single good argument to leave. Nothing beyond the anti-immigrant stance actually requires leaving. The stuff about linking with the commonwealth is nonsense. Former colonies have their trade deal with the EU, they have no reason to give Britain special treatment (quite the opposite).

Admeus: while Remain might exaggerate future impacts (though imo there are potentially big dangers) the Leave campaign have lied a lot about what is happening now. A bit different.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

The Leave have issued a lot of information in leaflets (anything up to 6 page A5 pamphlets) and even did an 8 page metro style news paper, all of which make well thought out and compelling arguments to leave,

They put their BNP money to good use, then. ;hmm

Did they include the 'Turks, coming to rape our white women!' line.



A vote winner with a certain demographic?


Metro Style, you say.

Like this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-brexit-immigration-what-it-means-facts-live-updates-newspaper-advert-leave-remain-a7095191.html

well thought out and compelling arguments

Go on then. Persuade me ;biggrin

PrestonHammer

Out vote for me.

Dodger58

An alternative opinion on the worth of EU membership from Switzerland: https://rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

I thought I'd find a link outside the UK press. It also states:

Switzerland, never a member of EU, shares free trade with the union and free movement of people as part of the Schengen zone.

It will not be doom and gloom or nirvana whatever the result.

Personally I would like to move away from EU control, for two main reasons:
1. I want my vote to count for the way my country is run. If I don't like the incumbent Government I can vote against it - the European Commissioners (who hold the real power) are unelected Eurocrats.
2. I want to be able to trade Globally, without European protectionism preventing the UK coming to our own trade agreements.

Are we like Guernsey, as recently claimed by by the French Economic Minister, bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36567469 or are we the 5th largest economy in the world?

Whatever the result, life will go on, I'll still support the Hammers, focus on improving the lot for my family and enjoying life.

Vote according to your own opinion and if in doubt vote with your heart. Whatever you do, don't fail to vote, then complain if the result isn't the one you hoped for.