The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50
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Comments
My brain can't cope with agreeing with him....
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I'm ok cos I dislike all politicians. ;wink ;lol
Hang on I may be able to give you away out of agreeing with Jeremy Hunt.....a long shot perhaps....but here goes.....he may have different reasons for voting in to yours.....so technically you wouldn't be agreeing with him ;biggrin
Luckily though Giant, there are "questionable" characters on both side of the fence
Mooj though is now outed as a fully signed up member of Sturgeon's fan club ;lol
Luckily though Giant, there are "questionable" characters on both side of the fence
Mooj though is now outed as a fully signed up member of Sturgeon's fan club ;lol
Though I jest about voting "in" just because Gove on the "out" side. I do fully intend to research what is the best option. This sort of decision is going to affect my daughter and many generations to come.
By your logic, don't bother with general elections either and let's just settle for a communist state??
;biggrin
So my inclination is to vote OUT as in 75 but I have not totally decided
I have two daughters, both in their late twenties, one works for a Danish company the other for a Belgium company, both are UK based.
They, and others in the company move regularly and freely between the UK and Belgium and Denmark, there is a mix of those nationalities in the offices here and in Europe. They also move goods in their own vans back and forth a couple of times a week. This all works smoothly and has done for years.
If we leave will their Dutch and Belgium colleagues be able to continue working here and will my daughters be allowed to work there with the end of free movement of labour? Also trade tariffs will need to somehow be negotiated for the movement of goods and this will require border checks and no doubt lots of additional paperwork. Both firms are deeply worried that their successful companies could be seriously affected by the change and this is already holding them back on new investment.
Many of my wife's family are farmers and they benefit from farm subsidies which are EU based and calculated. The levels have mostly been set over the years by the pressure of French farmers. I know we pay into the fund but its seems that most farmers (and the NFU) believe that any replacement scheme by the UK government would not be as beneficial as the EU payments. Many farmers (not all) find it hard to keep going and loosing these subsidies would cause many problems.
Just my own views.
There has through history been astonishing atrocities participated in by whole nations, atrocities that the people themselves could hardly believe when reflecting afterwards, as in the case of Nazi Germany, yet the power of division through information propaganda, the propensity for people to accept what is presented as fact should never be underestimated. Once this is acknowledged democracy can appear a little fanciful in practice.
One way of seeing it is that politics is a part of life and always has been, politics is about power and controlling power has taken different shapes throughout time, currently there is an idea called democracy which is used as a tool for politicians to negotiate power, we accept it as we must, just as people had to accept rule from Kings and Queens, we work within the rules as demanded but do not really believe in the game but decide to exercise our own values in our own small sphere of interconnection, to show kindness, consideration and community. The politicians continue to wrestle for power between themselves.
I lived in England after I left Belgium (in 1989) and in 2004 I moved to Switzerland for a job with a big multinational company in Basel, and, for the record, I moved a couple of miles down the road and across the border back into the EU in France (Alsace) in 2009 when I started to think about going freelance in my chosen profession and occupation which is writing, editing and copywriting.
Anyway with all the afore-mentioned out of the way, while I no longer have the vote (too many years out of the UK) I still feel this issue very keenly and I really do understand many of the arguments for and against. Mrs Swiss, by the way, is a rabid outer - convinced that UK will do better outside than in.
I think the longer term arguments are more important than the shorter term arguments. The key argument that everyone might agree with is whether the UK will have more influence inside than out on world events such as dealing with the US, China, Russia, migrants policy, defence, wars, terrorism etc etc. For me that encompasses most if not all of the other issues. I have to say that staying in makes us stronger in that sense.
Look at it also in football terms. I know that it's not a precise analogy, but every football supporter of almost every British team wants to see their team "play in Europe". For that to happen of course we don't need to be members of the EU but it's significant that this is the level that everyone wants for their foptball team. It's in our blood that we don't stop at Calais. We didn't stop there in 1944 thank God. And As football supporters we dont think we are really champions - like the Man Us of this world - when we win the PL but only when we win the CL.
Being out of Europe will certainly have an impact on foreign players as it will on workers like me who will lose the benefits of being able to use French social services because we had been entitled in the UK, for the money will flow elsewhere, as inevitably there will be extra costs attached to living and working in the EU and vice versa without that brilliant Briritsh contribution to Europe, the single market. Many Brits abroad will also lose their jobs - to Europe we will look a bit like the USA (and if Boris has his way we will deserve it) A more nationalist government in the UK could bring in taxes for foreigners (especially differential property taxes), not possible within the EU, that will make it difficult for cross border employment or recruitment. Jobs that depend on European markets will suffer from marginal changes to the conditions of those jobs. Currency exchange rates will change, again marginally. The EU has to favour its own. Of course it does.
On the other hand - we were never in Schengen so no change there on passports and queues at borders. We never had the euro, which arguable was a big Brussels mistake, I'll grant that. It wasn't necessary for us but we were right not to join at the time, but we wont be right about that forever. We have always been able to decide these things. I go across 3 or 4 national borders a week (Switzerland IS in Schengen although not in the EU) and I havent been stopped or searched in over 5 years. I feel a sense of shame and disgrace when I see the Calais situation, caused by us not accepting our responsibilities as a civilised nation and apparently Christian country. these people are not terrorists they are exyctly like you me and Dimi Payet, but unfortunately it represents a nasty anti-foreigner and certainly anti-immigrant policy that this government seems to think is fair play. I definitely don't. If we were more Europe-minded it would be better but no government has really bothered for two generations to praaise the benefits of a united Europe. We (or our fathers) all know what a divided Europe looks like. I hope the next generation won't lose the memory altogether because we are not doing well in keeping it alive..
I feel sad now, I think there's now a chance that we will leave the EU if we are not careful and lose our marbles, and I think Cameron is the most opportunistic PM ever. He has risked the future of this country to try and keep the Tory party together. He and Boris deserve each other.
My last point - something my father told me at the time of the last referendum (which was the first time I voted in the UK (to stay in BTW)) was this. Consider, outside the UK, who
Sorry to be so long. And I don't even have a vote, the UK is the only country in Europe to disfranchise its nationals when they live abroad for a while.
Were I unsure that would certainly of given me pause for thought. I had not reflected on just how this whole referendum business has come about due to a split in the Tory party.
ammerinaberdeen.
We really aren't 'great' any more. In any sense of the word. imo.
And out, we will be even smaller and more peripheral.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35636838
Know what swiss meant.
;ok
;ok
Good point, I read something similar to that the other day. Putin is urging Brexit. ;hmm
None of them I suspect
In other words, they are speculating, which pretty much anyone can do
My radio station this morning mentioned the thing about 36 ftse bosses signing a letter saying exiting would affect uk jobs. However the same station made no mention of the other 64 bosses. So I for one render that particular story as pretty much meaningless.
We can't rely on newspapers, unless we want to just read things that confirm our existing prejudices. The Sun, Daily Mail, Times, Sunday Times + Telegraph are all pretty much pushing an 'out' agenda, I think. The Express had nailed its colours to the 'Out' mast. Murdoch is himself campaigning for 'out'.
The Guardian, FT and Mirror are all 'In'.
So all their reporting will be (to a greater or lesser degree) biased.