The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

EastcoteHammer

SuzanneClaret said:

But

That's not the public at large is it.

Suzanne was that addressed to my comment?

SuzanneClaret

Well if ever I was wavering about my 'in' that has made up my mind.

EastcoteHammer

Lol
It's hard facts for me, not which side Boris Johnson is or isn't on. I can't base my decision on personalities.

SuzanneClaret

Yes, that was addressed to you comment.

and neither do I but if Boris likes something I dont.

baracks_a_hammer

I'm not basing my ultimate decision on whether I like a person or not. I am pretty ;hmm about Nicola Sturgeon for example, however if I believe there is ultimate merit in what she (and others) have to say re: staying in, then that is how I will vote. Same goes for George Galloway and "out"

EastcoteHammer

SuzanneClaret said:

Yes, that was addressed to you comment.

and neither do I but if Boris likes something I dont.

Sorry I just don't understand your response Suzanne, perhaps you could clarify?

SuzanneClaret

EastcoteHammer said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

baracks

It isn't just spin that is the problem, though, imo.

There will be an awful lot of people voting who are either uninformed or ill-informed, who nonetheless have the right effectively to determine fiscal policy for decades to come.

That doesn't seem great, to me.

Grey,
It is every persons responsibility who intends to vote to be as informed as possible as the question and resulting decision are critical to get right. I know that is what I'll be doing as will every poster who has posted on this thread I hope.

But

That's not the public at large is it.


The public at large do not / will not be as informed as possible as the question and resulting decision are critical to get right.

claretandbluesky

Can we try out for a couple of years and then come back if it doesn't work out?

Can we be on a break?

Some good points made on either side and a very good thread.

Still definitely IN as out just seems to globally regressive to leave. I tend think in 50 years the EU will still be here as it is too deeply entrenched to fail now, so our children or grandchildren would at some point be likely need apply again, and would do so from a very different position that we have now.

SuzanneClaret

baracks_a_hammer

It's irrelevant, surely, how well informed or not each person is? - it is a right for them to cast their vote how they see fit based on what they know/understand, no matter how great their understanding may or may not be. That's democracy after all? And about time too in my opinion, that every person had their say on this matter.

SuzanneClaret

Absolutely baracks.


[unless of course you're not voting the same as me ;biggrin ]

baracks_a_hammer

TBC, Suzanne, TBC !!!

MrsGrey

I don't think Boris's influence in the minds of the voters outside London is very significant tbh

MrsGrey

I don't vote according to personalites, but if I ever found myself agreeing with Gove on anything, I'd probably have to have a word with myself.

thornburyiron

The thing is I bet 95% of posters on here cannot remember what it was like before we joined the "Common Market" as they're too young so only know what's happened since.
The common market seemed a good idea until Germany decided that it was a back door route to rule Europe and determine how everybody does things how they want it.
I'm leaning towards out but would be more inclined to say in if there was more transparency about how things are run.
Part of the problem lies with successive UK governments and judiciary who blindly obey every dictat issued by the EU whilst the rest only abide by the bits that suits them.

grey_til_I_dye

baracks

I don't think it is irrelevant.

I don't believe that 'the people' have the right to choose, regardless of how stupid that choice might be.

I don't expect the majority of those who vote to be properly informed, which is why I don't really support the idea of a referendum for this, or indeed any issue.

simonc

Seems to me there is allot of scaremongering to keep the UK in, biggest problem in my mind with the EEC is its bureaucracy & the new deal does not appear to address that.
OUT OUT and more OUT - Security info will still be shared as its in everyone's best interest, trade will continue as people and companies buy products and services based on their price and capabilities not where they are made.
Biggest benefits - Don't have to pay to for FIFA like Brussels bureaucracy and French farmer subsidies.

baracks_a_hammer

Grey

I'm not sure I agree.

When we admitted originally, I think this was via a referendum? What they were voting on back then is a quantum difference compared to what the EU is now. Only right therefore (IMO) that the public once again has that voice.

OutcastLondoner

MrsGrey, I think you might be mistaken there. How Boris votes isn't important, but he's a good campaigner.

He does have influence outside of London and I think he'll be influential in the South at large. Generally, he didn't become Mayor with much of the inner London vote but with the Greater London areas that cross over into the various counties. So I think that shows is popularity is actually beyond London.

MrsGrey

outcast, you could be right ;ok

I was thinking more of 'oop norf' though, rather than 'darn sarf' - I should have been more specific.

Dodger58

claretandbluesky said:

Still definitely IN as out just seems to globally regressive to leave.

Claret, this is the bit I find strange you clearly embrace the need for a Global approach, but the EU is insular and is actually very poor at acting globally. They are holding us back.

I work in Electronics in my current company we are a multinational global leader, 60% of our sales comes from Asia Pacific (mainly China, Korea and Taiwan), 22% from the Americas and all of 18% from Europe.

My previous company, 20 people, 40% is UK based, 55% US/Asia, 5% Europe.

I recognise that not all industries/markets are the same, but there's a big world out there and its currently running away from the EU. A little less procrastination from the EU and we can make ourselves more successful - all in my onion of course
;ok

MrsGrey

;hmm

But will leaving the EU (and thus its negotiated trade agreements with China and USA, say) mean your company will be trading at a disadvantage or facing quotas/higher tariffs etc

For example, new trade deals with USA seem unlikely, or at least not too favourable, according to US govt. (And US represents the 2nd biggest market after the EU for UK companies.)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/29/us-warns-britain-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu

OutcastLondoner

Mrs Grey ;ok I think you might be right though the energy he'll give to the campaign (which already has more momentum imo) might help even up north.

I've watched him several times in Mayor's Question Time for work and it's scary how he's able to joke his way through life.

Dodger58

Mrs Grey,
No it won't in either case you highlight - it would actually help make the US less competitive globally.

baracks_a_hammer

The company I work for has a fantastic relationship with suppliers from both witihn Europe, including Greece and from outside, including China.

I have to say though, there is a scandalous amount of red tape and bureaucracy associated with us importing from our EU cousins, and practically none if we import from outside the EU.

We actually have to pay for an external resource to deal with some of this EU red tape - is this how it was supposed to be? Because it is far smoother and easier for us to deal with companies outside the away from that point of view. Has David Cameron's "deal" meant that this farcical situation will change - I'd really like to know, I really would.

baracks_a_hammer

I meant to say "outside the EU" but find it difficult to edit!!!

Dodger58

Barracks, no the bureaucracy will remain and the associated costs that helps make the EU uncompetitive. The deal is meaningless in the scheme of things - in my onion of course. And you are 100% correct, the level of bureaucracy for dealing with the rest of the world is far lower ...

EastcoteHammer

SuzanneClaret said:

EastcoteHammer said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

baracks

It isn't just spin that is the problem, though, imo.

There will be an awful lot of people voting who are either uninformed or ill-informed, who nonetheless have the right effectively to determine fiscal policy for decades to come.

That doesn't seem great, to me.

Grey,
It is every persons responsibility who intends to vote to be as informed as possible as the question and resulting decision are critical to get right. I know that is what I'll be doing as will every poster who has posted on this thread I hope.

But

That's not the public at large is it.


The public at large do not / will not be as informed as possible as the question and resulting decision are critical to get right.

Where's your evidence for that statement just above? ;hmm

imagelost

You give me or my mates the vote to in or out
The answer is out
Not sure what like evel the polls are on !!!!
are whom there talk too but it's not me area
The interpo thing ,,, the law is the law
And free trading
Stop scare mongring
Give proof are shut up

grey_til_I_dye

Eastcote

Are you honestly saying that you expect the majority of people who vote on this issue to have fully informed themselves?

You might just as easily be asked, where is your evidence for that statement?