Brexit: the next stage. Deal or No Deal? (and the General Election)

billybondsbeard

I like Kier Starmer - he has a bit of gravitas. Surprisingly good reaction to Labour on the doorstep in the SW this week. I doubt if it will turn into anything, but a surprising anount of remainers saying they would vote for either labour/Lib Dems tactically to get the tories out. I'm not sure how happy I am personally about this, but its proving what I think, that this election wont neccesarily be on the old party political lines. Loads of younger voters desperate for a change in government, and pensioners spooked by the possible removal of the triple lock. One old girl even said that she thought Mr Corbyn looked like a 'nice man' - so theres a start ! I'm not proud of myself though - I swore at a Tory.

Onward and upward - My knees are killing me ;weep

MrsGrey

billybondsbeard said:

I'm not proud of myself though - I swore at a Tory.

;biggrin

NEoldiron

bbb, tactical voting you say ;hmm. Have you seen this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-stop-the-tories_uk_58f89312e4b0cb086d7e4de6

https://www.tactical2017.com/

billybondsbeard

NEoldiron said:

bbb, tactical voting you say ;hmm. Have you seen this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-stop-the-tories_uk_58f89312e4b0cb086d7e4de6

https://www.tactical2017.com/

Yes saw that NEOI - its a great piece of work. It means that I've got to steer people to A labour vote first, and then Lib Dem.
( We are sort of talking already ;whistle )

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Labour are the worst choice IMO, they are still committed to Brexit but their version of it will see us still in everything and contributing but with no say, pulling cap and bending knee saying "thank 'ee kind sir/ma'am" every time they force a decision us - which they will.

The Lib Dems/Greens/SNP if they get the chance will seek to have the A50 activation withdrawn and ignore the wishes of the UK majority, making all sorts of concessions to wheedle their way back in.

Both cases will damage our economy for years to come, as the EU will then manipulate things to get their hands on all the wealth generating industries/business we have left and moving them to other EU countries (read that as France/Germany).
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If we have a weak economy then the NHS, Education and all other public services will suffer, these can only be improved and have more spending from more tax from a strong economy, not by punishing Companies through higher Corporation and other taxes (which will drive them out of the UK), but by increasing tax across the board. This year my Council Tax went up an additional 4%, do I mind? no because it is all going to be spent on social care services in my area, it's only an additional £4.25p a month. I was not bothered about an increase in NI by 1% as it was all for the NHS - a service we all use so should all pay for through NI - and it is not exactly a big rise for most people. To get it scrapped because it broke a manifesto pledge when IMO it is justified as circumstances have change was more despicable than braking the pledge - how often does that happen. Think how many more tens or hundreds of millions would now be available to the NHS budget - sorry for the rant, back to the subject....
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All of these (and some other parties) seem to be wilfully ignorant that Brexit is a two way negotiation and the EU have made their starting point clear on many occasions, so for them to say "we want to keep or maintain this, this and this" without any indication of what they would give up in return (in some cases believing they will not have to make concessions in return - SNP in particular) when the EU have already said "you can't", is frankly a ridiculous position to take and deliberately misleading the voting public.

Like it or not, if you want out of the EU with any sort of Brexit that benefits the UK, TM and the Tories are the only option to get a deal reflecting what the people who voted leave want, hence the reason they will win the GE.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

The Lib Dems/Greens/SNP if they get the chance will seek to have the A50 activation withdrawn and ignore the wishes of the UK majority, making all sorts of concessions to wheedle their way back in.

In the interests of accuracy, let's be clear that a minority - not a majority - of registered voters voted to leave.

Fact.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

I was not bothered about an increase in NI by 1% as it was all for the NHS - a service we all use so should all pay for through NI - and it is not exactly a big rise for most people. To get it scrapped because it broke a manifesto pledge when IMO it is justified as circumstances have change was more despicable than braking the pledge - how often does that happen. Think how many more tens or hundreds of millions would now be available to the NHS budget

Erm, is that ring-fenced, and guaranteed. For ever?

Have you got proof of that?

I don't think so.

The govt hardly ever ring-fence revenue ...





;hmm Maybe it was written on the side of a bus, in which case of course it's a promise. ;wink

epsom_bubbles

I've stayed out of this so far, but something on the news last night, really got my blood boiling. Who the 'heck' does Gina Miller think she is. Whatever your political persuasion, or reasons for voting, they are your choices. Using crowd funding, she has set up a group to educate and guide us 'unwashed' how to best vote in the election. If she wants to affect the outcome then stand for election, or she should mind her own business. Only my opinion mind you

grey_til_I_dye

epsom

I'm not sure that fairly reflects her stated aims or intentions.

As for 'stand for election or shut up' - that doesn't say much for the ideal of a participatory democracy, does it?

ASLEFshrugged

epsom - if Gina Miller stood as a candidate she could only effect one constituency, by campaigning for tactical voting she can effect a lot more.

She's raised over £300k through crowd funding with donations from over 10k people, Arron Banks spent £7.5m of his own money to support Brexit, which is more democratic?

Blair has refused to back Corbyn for Prime Minister, I'm sure Corbyn is relieved...

MrsGrey

epsom_bubbles said:

If she wants to affect the outcome then stand for election, or she should mind her own business.

I have to disagree with you there. Lots of people do stuff to affect the outcomes of elections, other than stand themselves. Armies of campaign workers, fundraisers etc.

NEoldiron

I just came across this review; the first two paragraphs are worth noting.
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/apr/01/decline-fall-review-jack-whitehall-evelyn-waugh-pennyweather

claretandbluesky

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39737216

I think someone needs tell her that she has no hand to play, she is completely at the mercy of the other player.

The picture is great as I think it sums up how most countries in the world are looking at us. Even May's face seems to say 'I know, but what can I do now'

NEoldiron

Anybody seen this, a little worrying.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#69e2cbba4f04

Expat_Hammer

Merely the opinion of another remoaner, IMO of course ;wink

OutcastLondoner

She's having a disastrous campaign. There was a video of her door-stepping and not a single person opened their doors (on a bank holiday), while one person already standing outside their home just flat-out said no.

claretandbluesky

The impossible position she finds herself in is becoming clearer and she knows it. The arrogance of the brexiteers in her party and their imagination of the all powerful UK, will likely get what it deserves when they eventually have to go to a negotiating table with nothing dressed up as something, and then of course blame someone else when they come back with nothing.

NEoldiron

Expat, did you actually read the article? Nothing to do with Remainers at all.

ASLEFshrugged

I'm starting to get the feeling that Theresa May has decided that that Brexit is going to be a disaster, she doesn't want to go down in history as the Prime Minister that ruined the country and is trying her best to lose the election.

MrsGrey

;wahoo

AdMeus_CaputFilius

OK, if you want to be pedantic, the majority of registered voters who could be bothered to vote, voted to leave, those that didn't have only themselves to blame.

A lesser minority of registered voters voted to remain - FACT

AdMeus_CaputFilius

MrsGrey said:

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

I was not bothered about an increase in NI by 1% as it was all for the NHS - a service we all use so should all pay for through NI - and it is not exactly a big rise for most people. To get it scrapped because it broke a manifesto pledge when IMO it is justified as circumstances have change was more despicable than braking the pledge - how often does that happen. Think how many more tens or hundreds of millions would now be available to the NHS budget

Erm, is that ring-fenced, and guaranteed. For ever?

Have you got proof of that?

I don't think so.

The govt hardly ever ring-fence revenue ...





;hmm Maybe it was written on the side of a bus, in which case of course it's a promise. ;wink

Well all I can tell you was what I saw/heard on the ITV news, that the 1% rise in NI was all for the NHS - perhaps if it had been agreed then the ring fencing and guarantee would have been given - lots of things are written on the sides of busses, most if not all of is advertising so why would it be a promise if it was?

MrsGrey

You say pedantic. I say accurate.




You say those who didn't vote 'couldn't be bothered'. Have you got any actual information on why they didn't vote?

If not, you should probably (but obviously its your choice) stop ascribing to the non-voters motives which you have made up.

MrsGrey

That 1% increase, btw, wasn't for everybody - only for the self-employed.

And it was justified by the Chacellor as being in the interests of fairness and equality between the self-employed and employees. It would have raised money for the public purse, but (despite what ITV said) the govt didn't (as far as I can tell) claim that it would all go to the NHS.

The inequality issue was related also to pensions. Not just the NHS.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

ts of things are written on the sides of busses, most if not all of is advertising so why would it be a promise if it was?

Notice my ;wink

It was a joke.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Well from all the info available at the moment it would seen it is the EU pushing the hard brexit line (as was always the case) not the UK Gov't, so if it does end up hard it is them to blame. TBH I think a deal will be done and hopefully it will be a compromise.

TM wants a speedy resolution to the EU in UK and UK in EU migrants rights issue but Junker has indicated it could take longer than we want - it was always the case the EU was dragging their feet on this, not the UK so you can blame them for your worries and uncertainties in that area. Even if the UK had guaranteed the EU migrants rights the EU would still not have done the same as yet as you are one of their bargaining chips.

MrsGrey

I am baffled by the line that I have seen in the press and various opinion pieces: 'Brexit would all be sunshine and roses if it wasn't for those nasty EU types. If it ends up not being so good for the UK (ie 'hard') it's all their fault'.


Because, well .... many of those argued for Remain SAID it wasn't gonna be easy, and the other side at the negotiating table would have more power, would hold all the cards, and would most likely be able to negotiate something that would be in their interests more than the UKs. But we were dismissed as doom-mongers. We were told they needed us as much as we needed them.

But so far it isn't quite turning out like that. They are driving a hard bargain (or are likely to.)

Well, Anyone who voted Leave has, imo, no grounds for complaining about how the EU is approaching these negotiations - they have got exactly what they wanted. Exit. Deal with it. ;cool

I have absolutely no truck with the line that 'Brexit was the right thing and would have been OK if it had all turned out like we in our imaginary world had thought it might. So it's not our fault for ignoring and dismissing the warnings. Oh no. That would be the nasty Germans, Poles, French etc.'

I mean. Really?

;smoking

claretandbluesky

ASLEFshrugged said:

I'm starting to get the feeling that Theresa May has decided that that Brexit is going to be a disaster, she doesn't want to go down in history as the Prime Minister that ruined the country and is trying her best to lose the election.

I have the same feeling Aslef - the UK position is completely impossible to negotiate without the benevolence of the other party, and with each passing EU member election it just gets more so. Many knew as soon as the referendum result was in that it was a position which couldn't be negotiated as you simply had nothing to bargain with (even my most convinced brexit friends have stopped with the wine, cheese and cars argument), whilst the other party knew our economy was at stake, we were sold a pup as the phrase goes.

Vorselaarhammer

May is throwing hand grenades....

billybondsbeard

May is a control freak -and at the moment she is out of control, and whatever the result in June, will be damaged goods. Things are really starting to unravel.
On the last day of parliament, there were 2 debates with outcomes showing that the tories are really starting to screw up. The Public Accounts committee severely criticised the MOD for committing itself to new Equipment arising from the 2015 Defence review before establishing "how the equipment would be paid for" !!
Also Justine Greening also criticised on funding and locations of Free Schools as " increasingly incoherent and too often poor value for money". Both central planks of Conservative policy in recent years

On a normal day this would/should have been front page news, but was buried.

People just dont know about this sort of thing on the doorstep.